Angle to the shot

[CoachGavin]

Hello all.

I am always practising different styles and techniques to see which ones work and why. Currently, I am interested in what people think is the best angle to play regarding the chest and line of aim. Now I know that the stance has become much more square over the last few years and players face the line of the shot more with their feet. However it seems to me that although some players face the line of aim they turn from the hips and waist in varying degrees. For instance Steve Davis seems to face quite square on but I have read in Stephen Hendrys book that he says he turns as much as possible to run the cue along the chest. When i watch him on TV he does look strange sometimes as if his chest is at nearly 90 degrees to the shot! Stephen Lee also looks like he is quite side on although this could be because of his physical dimensions.

So, If I was playing a straight blue into the middle and then stood up where would I be facing? Steve Davis says on his coaching video that he is between the corner pocket and middle pocket. Older coaching videos would say the corner pocket - 45 degrees ish. I have experimented a bit with this and it does seem to affect the follow through so I wondered what other people did and also what people thought that the top players did?

Any thoughts would be interesting.

[nrage]

Some of the best advice I've read/heard came from here:
http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/the_stance/stance.htm

If it's comfortable, and stable, and allows you to deliver the cue straight then it's doing it's job. You'll want to be able to get into the exact same stance consistently, as this will improve your overall consistency.

The stance may also have an effect on sighting:
http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/sighting/sighting.htm

Nic Barrow has some good videos on stance too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFMWcwH-6o8
(sequence of 9 videos where he coaches a range of players)

[hotpot]

I thhink this area of the game causes most inconsistent cueing than any other , and if you can find a way of cueing in the same line on a consistent basis its half the battle .

I dont have the answer or a secret i just go with what feels mopst comfortable which does,nt always work for the best .

[Terry Davidson]

I think comfort and stability is the secret here Gavin. Each player will have a different physique (Hendry vs Lee) and I believe there is a different correct set-up for each and every player.

For the reasonably slim guy I think Steve's 45degrees is likely to be the best and most comfortable unless he happens to be a body builder or something.

The rule of thumb I use with my students is this - when they are in the address position there should be at least 5in between the fron of their grip hand and the point where the grip hand hits the chest. This allows for at least 5in of follow-through without any elbow drop.

However, in saying that when the player gets into this position he MUST be comfortable and stable. With a really stocky guy with a big chest you may have to make some trade-offs, like having 4in between grip and chest but getting him to drop the elbow as I think the minimum follow-through should be at least 5in for every players, with 6in on a medium-paced shot being around the ideal.

I happen to be working with a student right now who is stocky and we're having a bit of a problem getting him to keep his right elbow dropping straight while giving him that 6in (or maybe more if we're lucky) of follow through. It's hard work and a lot of video analysis

Terry

[vmax4steve]

Stephen Lee also looks like he is quite side on although this could be because of his physical dimensions.

Are you saying he's fat ? !

[Theguywithaplan]

Are you saying he's fat ? !

Are you saying he's not??

[Terry Davidson]

No, not fat (not a lot anyway) but quite stocky.

However, we solved the problem and it is to swing the hips more towards the rear and left so we get a 4in gap or better to the trouser pocket from the back of the thumb on the grip hand. This brings the cue automatically more over towards the right armpit and gets the chunky pectoral muscle out of the cue action altogether.

He is now able to get 6in of follow-through without dropping the elbow and I've incorporated this into my action as well as I was always only about an inch (and sometimes less) from the pocket of the trousers.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

So are you saying that you should turn as much as possible whilst still being comfortable? This is what Hendry suggests in his book and what some of the pros seem to do. Some have quite a large gap between pocket and grip and this does seem to help them get through the white. I have also found this.

[poolqjunkie]

Is this doneto help the cue to follow through? But you should still rub the cue to the shirt around your chest, right?
I personally have found that it helps me to keep my elbow up about vertical when my cue is a bit far away from the pocket of my trousers. When I am too close my elbow gets lazy and is no longer vertical.
But if I really want to cue through the ball, having my cue not touching my chest helps me a lot as it allows me to drop my elbow and really follow through...I guess in snooker you are not supposed to do that though, right?

[Terry Davidson]

poolqj:

Where do some players get their advice from? It sounds like off the back of a corn flakes box or something. What could possibly be wrong with dropping the elbow a bit on both the backswing and follow-through? It's necessary for the cue to stay level if you follow through 6 inches or more. It generates more follow through and a more positive action, however if you run the cue under your right armpit then it might not be necessary and you can still get 6 inches of follow through (see below).)

In fact I would say it's VITAL for anyone who wants to be consistent, although the elbow must drop straight down with no sideways deviation. The Joe Davis 'DRIVE' which (I believe) is also called the 'Del Hill Drive' nowadays.

To answer your other question on the hips. It is correct to swing the hips back and as far to the left as is comfortably possible, and there should be at leat 3 inches and up to 6 inches between the back of the thumb of the grip hand and the trouser pocket. (Hendry used to have about 10 inches in his prime)

This will have the effect of getting the cue more over into the right armpit (for right-handers) and off the bulge of the pectoral muscle which in turn allows for at least 1 inch and likely 2 more inches of follow through PLUS the elbow lines up more vertical and over the cue.

Swing the hips out and over to the left as far as possible WITHOUT INTRODUCING DISCOMFORT

Terry

[poolqjunkie]

poolqj:

Where do some players get their advice from? It sounds like off the back of a corn flakes box or something. What could possibly be wrong with dropping the elbow a bit on both the backswing and follow-through? It's necessary for the cue to stay level if you follow through 6 inches or more. It generates more follow through and a more positive action, however if you run the cue under your right armpit then it might not be necessary and you can still get 6 inches of follow through (see below).)

In fact I would say it's VITAL for anyone who wants to be consistent, although the elbow must drop straight down with no sideways deviation. The Joe Davis 'DRIVE' which (I believe) is also called the 'Del Hill Drive' nowadays.

To answer your other question on the hips. It is correct to swing the hips back and as far to the left as is comfortably possible, and there should be at leat 3 inches and up to 6 inches between the back of the thumb of the grip hand and the trouser pocket. (Hendry used to have about 10 inches in his prime)

This will have the effect of getting the cue more over into the right armpit (for right-handers) and off the bulge of the pectoral muscle which in turn allows for at least 1 inch and likely 2 more inches of follow through PLUS the elbow lines up more vertical and over the cue.

Swing the hips out and over to the left as far as possible WITHOUT INTRODUCING DISCOMFORT

Terry

Thank you Terry. Appreciate it.
I do notice especially on power screw my grip hand does not finish in the same position. My grip also does not open and close like I do with stun shots. I sometimes tends to hold the cue too loose, and sometimes close my grip too early.
I will try to pay more attention to finishing the grip to my chest.
Yes, I was told not to drop my elbow, then I was told I should let the cue just go through the ball... Funny thing is it was a snooker player who told me to let my elbow drop, and a 9 ball player who told me to keep my elbow up.
Thank you for your advice.

[Terry Davidson]

pqj:

On the video coaching I've seen for US Pool, every one of the coaches advocates keeping the elbow still in space however on one video I noticed the coach actually measured the degree of rise (or change in the plane of the cue) as 7 degrees and he said that was 'very good'.

As a snooker coach I would advocate keeping the cue on exactly the same plane by dropping the elbow on the backswing and then again on the delivery.

As there is much more room for error on a US Pool table I guess it would be OK however I believe almost every pro snooker player drops his elbow, if not on the backswing (because it might be shorter than normal) then for sure on the delivery to get that 7 inches or more of follow-through.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

For the same reasons you give I would have to agree with you terry. I have tried a number of different positions and definately find that twisting the hips gives a much better follow through as their is more room for the cue. However it is interesting that although with the modern stance you end up with your feet facing the line of shot your body ends up facing more sideways which makes me wonder whether standing to an angle like they did pre-steve davis is the way to go )

On the corn flakes packet issue I think that people do get confused as there seems to be 2 schools of thought about dropping the elbow or not. There are at least 2 well known coaches that have said that the elbow should not drop from its address position and when they are well recognised coaches then people will listen.

You are right that Del Hill does use the drive as his style of coaching. However to make things more complicated he does not believe the elbow should drop as you pull the cue back. I do not agree with this but I suppose everyone has their point of view.

Personally I think dropping the elbow is the correct way to go but people must not get confused and start dropping the elbow too early and start putting the shoulder into the shot. I also think that depending on your grip and length of backswing the elbow may drop on the backswing.

Anyway, good to hear peoples thoughts on this. keep it up

[Giggity1984]

A very interesting thread this. Gavin, The book you're talking about, is that "Hendry's Break Building Masterclass"?!

[CoachGavin]

Yes, I read it a few years ago and he says something like turn your body as much as possible so that the cue runs along the chest. You can also see it from higher camera angles that in his peak years there was a lot of twist. Actually I think he twisted so much and had a odd stance that he had to change his technique to stop him having back problems later in life!