BIG problem!

[Terry Davidson]

cazmac:

Just like to put in a correction. Neither Nic Barrow nor Terry Griffiths advocate NOT dropping the elbow. In fact Nic strongly advocates it on both the backswing and the delivery.

The Terry Griffiths school on the other hand advocates a backswing length geared to the power you want so on low power shots the backswing would be about 3 inches and there is no need for the elbow to drop on the backswing and also there will be less follow-through so the elbow won't drop on the dleivery however Terry still advocates completing the delivery with the grip hand hitting the chest on every shot.

For medium and high power shots Terry does advocate a longer backswing where the elbow had to drop to keep the cue level and also an elbow drop on the delivery for the same reason.

It's all about keeping the cue on the same plane throughout the backswing and delivery.

Terry

[Acrowot]

The great Joe Davis used to say to drop the elbow.
:snooker:

[cazmac1]

cazmac:

Just like to put in a correction. Neither Nic Barrow nor Terry Griffiths advocate NOT dropping the elbow. In fact Nic strongly advocates it on both the backswing and the delivery.

The Terry Griffiths school on the other hand advocates a backswing length geared to the power you want so on low power shots the backswing would be about 3 inches and there is no need for the elbow to drop on the backswing and also there will be less follow-through so the elbow won't drop on the dleivery however Terry still advocates completing the delivery with the grip hand hitting the chest on every shot.

For medium and high power shots Terry does advocate a longer backswing where the elbow had to drop to keep the cue level and also an elbow drop on the delivery for the same

It's all about keeping the cue on the same plane throughout the backswing and delivery.

Terry

Del says that you you should drop the elbow on every shot, some shots you might not even notice it, because the drop is so small, I seen coaching video's of nic showing the elbow droping on the back swing, as you say to keep the que on a level plain. This is at odds with what Del teaches, as he says that you should not drop the elbow on the back swing and the que should actully rise on the back swing. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other but mearly pointing out the different methods.
Just like to add terry when I'm talking about dropping the elbow I mean on the follow through, not on the draw back/ back swing as I've seen nic suggest on you tube.
I've maneged to but some of the coaching lesson on youtube. Do a search on del hill coaching. would like feed back if you don't mind, thanks.

[CoachGavin]

Terry, I was told TG thinks that the elbow should not drop on the delivery however Wayne seemed to agree with me that the elbow must drop.

Anyway, just to defend myself.Coaching yourself is very different to coaching other people. I think I have most of the answers and have tried many of the methods on here but sometimes someone will always come up with something new and I am always looking to learn something new. Also with others you can take an unbiased view and also feelings dont come into the coaching as much - ie players say that they shouldnt do something because it doesn't FEEL right. A coach can say what is or is not the correct way without this interference and keep the player on track. Also a coach can give aims/ targets that a player may make too hard or too easy on their own. From a personal point of view I have had very little coaching myself and have had to learn it all myself (part of why I started coaching to help others avoid this). I also have family to look after as well as doing my coaching so I dont really have time to work on my own game so it is difficult. One final point I am sure most of the coaches around could do with some coaching but have not got the time or energy to work on their own game. I know a couple of well known coaches who have not reached a good standard for whatever reason.

Thanks for all the help and I will continue to work on it.

[CoachGavin]

Sorry, that should be cazmac1 and not terry about the elbow drop. Maybe Terry has changed his view recently?

[The Doctor]

I would have to say i would be very surprised if Del does indeed advocate "lifting the butt" on the backswing.
This action goes against all physics of what you are aiming to achieve with a cue action.
I have spoken to Del many times and about many parts of the game and never has he followed this train of thought although i do know he advocates dropping the elbow on follow through.
I myself feel that the elbow will naturally move to a certain degree but too much thought should not be wasted on whether this happens or not, but rather you should be more intent on keeping a constant plane(angle) of delivery and learn to control length of backswing to judge power of shot.

There will inevitably be several methods to coach but a coach should use the method he/she trusts in the most but he/she should never rest on their laurels but rather should keep learning themselves. Any coach worth anything should realise they too can and must continue to improve and learn.

[cazmac1]

I would have to say i would be very surprised if Del does indeed advocate "lifting the butt" on the backswing.
This action goes against all physics of what you are aiming to achieve with a cue action.
I have spoken to Del many times and about many parts of the game and never has he followed this train of thought although i do know he advocates dropping the elbow on follow through.
I myself feel that the elbow will naturally move to a certain degree but too much thought should not be wasted on whether this happens or not, but rather you should be more intent on keeping a constant plane(angle) of delivery and learn to control length of backswing to judge power of shot.

There will inevitably be several methods to coach but a coach should use the method he/she trusts in the most but he/she should never rest on their laurels but rather should keep learning themselves. Any coach worth anything should realise they too can and must continue to improve and learn.

Hi doctor, I not making it up del told me to bring the butt of the cue back as to hit someone in the front row with the Butt of the cue in the head, it's all on my youtube page for everyone to hear and see.
what evers going on I potting better than I have done for years. I'm not making any big breaks which is strange, but I'm sure this will come. what I can say is that I beating players that I used to loose to by big margins. so something working.
Just want to add that I might not be explaining tha action very well, gaving has got it spot on. The cue stays on the plane of the angle the cue is on and as the cue has to be at an angle when pulling the cue back it go's up the slope.

[CoachGavin]

Must say I have spoken to Del too and he says that the elbow should never drop on the backswing. I know he says you should follow the cue plane so on backspin shots it makes sense that the elbow will stay up. However I asked him whether that included topspin shots where the cue was nearly parallel at address and so in theory the elbow must drop to keep the cue parallel. He told me that the slope must still be followed from up to down so the elbow would not drop on the backswing. This is where I disagree with him. I have seen a number of players he has coached who look like they are playing down on the white even on the topspin shots.

[CoachGavin]

Just to make it clear though just because I dont agree with everything he says I do rate him as a coach and think he has some very good ideas. I think he has an amazing way of bringing out confidence you never thought you had. He is also a nice bloke! Like has been said before you can always learn new ideas and the ideas from this forum has taught me lots about snooker, coaching and different cue actions.

On my own game, been watching more videos of myself and I have slowed down my whole walk in so that I can see where I move across. This has improved my line of aim loads so hopefully it will continue getting better. Thanks again.

[CoachGavin]

Just to make it clear though just because I dont agree with everything he says I do rate him as a coach and think he has some very good ideas. I think he has an amazing way of bringing out confidence you never thought you had. He is also a nice bloke! Like has been said before you can always learn new ideas and the ideas from this forum has taught me lots about snooker, coaching and different cue actions.

On my own game, been watching more videos of myself and I have slowed down my whole walk in so that I can see where I move across. This has improved my line of aim loads so hopefully it will continue getting better. Thanks again.

[cazmac1]

Must say I have spoken to Del too and he says that the elbow should never drop on the backswing. I know he says you should follow the cue plane so on backspin shots it makes sense that the elbow will stay up. However I asked him whether that included topspin shots where the cue was nearly parallel at address and so in theory the elbow must drop to keep the cue parallel. He told me that the slope must still be followed from up to down so the elbow would not drop on the backswing. This is where I disagree with him. I have seen a number of players he has coached who look like they are playing down on the white even on the topspin shots.

Hi gaving all my friends are commenting on the amount of screw I getting on the ball with little effort. I'm using the same cue action for top spin and again am getting bags of spin on even arching the white.
I played someone yesterday and beat him 6 - 2. He said arter wards that I'm looking really dangerous and look like I'm going to score when in amonst the balls. I'm really pleased I went to see del and would recomend him to anyone.

[Terry Davidson]

Gavin and Cazmac:

I advocate the elbow dropping a bit (one inch or less) on a long backswing and then somewhere around 2 inches on the follow-through.

For low power and short backswing shots I don't believe it's necessary to either drop the elbow or release the back fingers on the backswing, but you must still deliver the grip hand all the way through to the chest on every shot (unless the balls are close together and you can't).

cazmac...I missed your request for me to check out your youtube video with Del so i will have a look shortly

Terry

[CoachGavin]

I think Del is much more in favour of dropping the elbow more than 2 inches to be honest. Anyway, it was only the topspin shots I had problems with the theory of keeping the elbow up on take back. Unless you have a very wristy action then it is very hard to keep the cue on the plane without dropping the elbow.

Cazmac, I agree that dropping the elbow does create much more spin with little effort as I have tried this myself. I am glad Del sorted you out.

I hope you keep it up. Good luck!

[The Doctor]

I think, in order to get a proper grasp of the technique of the game, you must look at the mechanics and the aim of those mechanics.
Thinking about dropping the elbow by so many inches or keeping the elbow high on the backswing is off course in my opinion. I have the up most respect for anyone who has a good understanding of the game and i respect the opinions of anyone who puts forward a good reason for their theories, so please no take offense to my views.
It is 100% correct to have the cue on a constant plane(angle) all the way through the shot, but if the angle is too steep to start, then you are really making the object of hitting the cue ball true and consistent very very difficult.
An example. What do you do when trying to swerve the cue ball? lift the butt(to increase the angle of delivery). In doing so you exaggerate the spin imparted on the cue ball.
What happens to the difficulty when cueing over a ball to hit the centre of the cue ball? It increases and so does the likelihood of off centre striking.

Now lets go back to the theory of having a steep delivery and maintaining it through the shot. Does the difficulty increase of hitting centre of cue ball? YES. Does the percentage of consistent striking go up or down? DOWN.
Therefor, it is without question, most important to first of all get your cue as parallel to the table as possible(shot permitting) and to maintain that plane throughout the cue action(including the final backswing and follow through).
Now assuming you have lined the shot up correctly, you are in the best position to execute the shot with the highest degree of efficiency and accuracy and furthermore have a far greater chance to do so consistently.

There are also the variables in length of backswing that will affect the amount the elbow will drop or not, but that is another subject all together.

[Acrowot]

Cazmac, where is the link to your video, I could not find it. Can you put it on here again, please?
:snooker: