Cliffs Cubes

[the priest]

I remember reading Cliff Thorburns auto biography a few years ago and he spoke briefly about how he saw the balls as cubes and this helped him sight shots easily.
Unfortunately he never went into any detail. Anyone any idea how his system worked.
Perhaps one of you canadians could ask the great man himself i hear he still plays in the snooker centres over there.
Ocasionally on fairly long shots i imagine the ob has wheels either side of it aiming parallel to the pocket opening and then just let the white set them rolling.. i know how mad this sounds! (bet most of you try it out mind)
I was taught the ghost ball method early in my carreer but for snooker on tight pocket tables it just doesnt work for all shots. Any ob over say 18" away from the pocket and thinner than three quarter will almost always miss thick with this method.
I now, having hit millions of shots, look at the line of the angle and just know( i suppose sub consciously at least) where to aim.
Anyhoo.. what on earth was cliff on about and does anyone else have any imaginative (mad) ways to see angles?

[bongo]

I wouldn't worry too much about all the theories. The point on the object ball furthest from the pocket is the point you want to hit with the cue-ball. If you imagine the dead straight line of aim, which if you send the cue-ball along will contact the object ball in the correct place, then that is what you should try to send the cue-ball down. Remember, that aiming the centre of the tip at the point on the object ball when striking the centre of cue-ball won't necessarily give you the correct contact for the shot.

All of this, ideally, should be done subconsciously, so that being able to get down on the correct line, or close to it, should be automatic. The only thing you then need to worry about is delivering the cue straight. It all comes with playing experience I'm afraid.

The game is difficult enough as it is, so don't make it more difficult by giving your mind more work through trying to imagine balls as cubes or whatever. That is my advice.

bongo

[Acrowot]

Can you imagine a cube rolling along the table ...... lol.
:snooker:

[thelongbomber]

Bongo, I tell you what. I found a method that doesn't require you to see/feel the angle "subconciously" at least for a majority of shots played. It's a technique I'm using exclusive of all other aiming methods because it's the easiest to implement and doesn't require feeling/seeing angles. Potting improves considerably with it.

I talk about it in full here: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=27397 (see post #6).

Synopsis: Most people look for a spot on the OB (object ball), the cushion, the ghost ball, or combination of the above for their aiming. I use the contact point on the table, directly behind the OB and in line with the pocket as my initial aiming guide. The table surface is easier to maintain focus on when u you approach and feather. For full and near full shots it works absolutely spectacularly. Also works very well for blind shots into sides/corners. Using it, my potting consistency has gone way up.

Hope that helps!

[the priest]

Can you imagine a cube rolling along the table ...... lol.
:snooker:

hmmm.. perhaps you have to imagine the table has an ice surface too
Come to think of it that wouldn be too hard at my club tight wads never put the heating on.

[the priest]

Bongo, I tell you what. I found a method that doesn't require you to see/feel the angle "subconciously" at least for a majority of shots played. It's a technique I'm using exclusive of all other aiming methods because it's the easiest to implement and doesn't require feeling/seeing angles. Potting improves considerably with it.

I talk about it in full here: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=27397 (see post #6).

Synopsis: Most people look for a spot on the OB (object ball), the cushion, the ghost ball, or combination of the above for their aiming. I use the contact point on the table, directly behind the OB and in line with the pocket as my initial aiming guide. The table surface is easier to maintain focus on when u you approach and feather. For full and near full shots it works absolutely spectacularly. Also works very well for blind shots into sides/corners. Using it, my potting consistency has gone way up.

Hope that helps!

Sounds interesting mate.. so do you first find the actual contact point on the ball and then look at the spot on the cloth directly underneath it?

[thelongbomber]

Sounds interesting mate.. so do you first find the actual contact point on the ball and then look at the spot on the cloth directly underneath it?

Sort of yes. To say the contact point is a little misleading though because the contact point for non-full contacts are always the intersecting line from the pocket to the object ball LESS the width of the cue ball. Sorry, a rather fuzzy explanation, but here is another take in practical terms:

What I do is....

1. draw line from pocket to object ball and remember point on table surface behind the object ball. For example, do what Mathew Stevens sometimes does, getting behind the OB and kneeling down. Don't know what he visualizes but you get the gist.

2. approach and walk into the intersecting angle that the cue ball has to this contact point you visualize from step 1. Don't forget, you need to adjust for cue ball with and consider which "edge" of the cue ball is meant to hit this visualized point.

If you do it right, you will instantly see the potting angle when down on the cue ball, and can even go a step further if you like and add a ghost ball (but it's not necessary). With time, you may also see/feel a line from your hand, through your tip, through the cue ball, and intersecting near the visualized line.

Doing the two above gives me confidence when feathering and I have no problem making the ball at all because my body is in line, cue is in line, and i have something to aim at. It's working splendidly for me for most pots.

However, it doesn't work for every concievable shot in the game (imagine very close or very far from object ball) but for 90% of shots, it's super. For long shots, I fall back to the "does it feel right" theory of potting because you can't really see a contact point on the table.

Hope that helps

[thelongbomber]

Oh, forgot to mention sometimes I do what Stephen Hendry does: revisualize the line from object ball to pocket while I'm down on the shot. It's not the recommended eye movement if you follow the classical approach to the game, but for the occassional shot it helps me.

[the priest]

I wouldn't worry too much about all the theories. The point on the object ball furthest from the pocket is the point you want to hit with the cue-ball. If you imagine the dead straight line of aim, which if you send the cue-ball along will contact the object ball in the correct place, then that is what you should try to send the cue-ball down. Remember, that aiming the centre of the tip at the point on the object ball when striking the centre of cue-ball won't necessarily give you the correct contact for the shot.

All of this, ideally, should be done subconsciously, so that being able to get down on the correct line, or close to it, should be automatic. The only thing you then need to worry about is delivering the cue straight. It all comes with playing experience I'm afraid.

The game is difficult enough as it is, so don't make it more difficult by giving your mind more work through trying to imagine balls as cubes or whatever. That is my advice.

bongo

Ha haaa see the point on the ball furthest from the pocket is not always the spot to hit. I once tried coaching a bunch of 12 yr olds the ghost ball method by first of all getting them to hit an object ball absolutely full. When they could successfully do this i set up the ghost ball in an approximate half ball cut to a middle pocket, got them to get down aiming to hit the first ball again full ball, and when they were ready i rolled the ghost ball out of the way. Without fail the shot missed thick much to their bafflement and my embarrassment.
Ive come to the conclusion the only way to use the ghost ball method successfully is to apply a touch of helping side on cuts on or over half ball.
Guess it overides the throw effect..
I also believe many people who complain of sighting problems ie not trusting what they see down on the shot, have this problem because of the ghost ball theory or furthest part theory.. because their sub conscious knows this angle no matter how straight they cue will not get the job done.
Snooker can not be broken down scientifically im afraid its an art form.
Having said that i agree imagining all this extra stuff is hard but when im good im bloody good an ill keep searching for something that helps me slip into that form more often.

[the priest]

Sort of yes. To say the contact point is a little misleading though because the contact point for non-full contacts are always the intersecting line from the pocket to the object ball LESS the width of the cue ball. Sorry, a rather fuzzy explanation, but here is another take in practical terms:

What I do is....

1. draw line from pocket to object ball and remember point on table surface behind the object ball. For example, do what Mathew Stevens sometimes does, getting behind the OB and kneeling down. Don't know what he visualizes but you get the gist.

2. approach and walk into the intersecting angle that the cue ball has to this contact point you visualize from step 1. Don't forget, you need to adjust for cue ball with and consider which "edge" of the cue ball is meant to hit this visualized point.

If you do it right, you will instantly see the potting angle when down on the cue ball, and can even go a step further if you like and add a ghost ball (but it's not necessary). With time, you may also see/feel a line from your hand, through your tip, through the cue ball, and intersecting near the visualized line.

Doing the two above gives me confidence when feathering and I have no problem making the ball at all because my body is in line, cue is in line, and i have something to aim at. It's working splendidly for me for most pots.

However, it doesn't work for every concievable shot in the game (imagine very close or very far from object ball) but for 90% of shots, it's super. For long shots, I fall back to the "does it feel right" theory of potting because you can't really see a contact point on the table.

Hope that helps

So can you now see your aim point on the table by just looking from behind the white or do you walk around an line up the ob each shot?

[nrage]

Sort of yes. To say the contact point is a little misleading though because the contact point for non-full contacts are always the intersecting line from the pocket to the object ball LESS the width of the cue ball.

So.. the point on the table you're looking at, is it the centre of the 'ghost' ball? i.e. Where the ghost ball would sit on the table. This being 1 ball width behind the centre of the object ball on the line from the pocket to/through the object ball.

I'm going to have to try that, as I too find it hard to keep my eyes on a point on a round/shiny ball.. esp if they're clean/well polished because there are no distinguishing marks. I think this is at least one of the reasons I am far more accurate with american pool/spots/stripes balls vs british pool or snooker.

I am currently using the contact point on the object ball technique, but it's only 1/2 the battle.. as you still need to find the line of aim/path of the cue ball to the object ball. I am currently relying on instinct/experience to judge where that is, trying to recognise shots as 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 ball or thick/thin variants of those.

I once saw a man demonstrating how to find the line of aim mechanically, using this point. He placed his cue tip lightly on the table on that point, lifted the butt high enough to clear the other balls and walked around behind the cue ball keeping the cue tip fixed on the spot on the table. Then he got down on the shot by drawing the cue back along the line he found, to address position.

[cazmac1]

I might aswell put my sighting method up. I call it the thick and thin. It all came about when I was young and used to dought my aiming point this had the effect of making me change my aim a split second before delivering the cue and of course miss. I used the ghost ball method too, the problem I had was that it allways looked like I was hitting the ball thick, so if I ignored what my brain and eyes were telling me and just pushed the cue through on the chosen line the ball would go in. Now this just wasn't good enough as under pressure the temptation to twich is too great so I began experimenting.
What I found was this, you first sight the ball using the ghost ball method.
If it looks and feels correct it most probley is so don't worry about these shots.
Where my method worked was if appeared I was hitting the ball thick I would then look at the angle/path the white would take after contact, I found that this angle made the pot look thin it (they cancelled each other out) had the effect comfirming my potting angle and I was able to push the cue through with confidence.
Now this works with any shot.
If it the contact looks thick and the second angle looks thick you are aiming thick.

If the contact looks thin and the second angle looks thin you are aiming thin.

Its only when these two angles cancell each other out the correct potting angle has been selected.

Here your using lots of information to confirm the potting angle.
The point of contact on the object ball and the path your eyes our telling you it will take towards the pocket.
The point of contact the white will make and the direction the white will take and and the path the ball will take to the pocket.
Hope this makes sense. I know his works because at the time my potting was of pro standard and I think the only reason It doesn't work for me now is down other factors. I think this is something similar to how SH sights the ball

[the priest]

I might aswell put my sighting method up. I call it the thick and thin. It all came about when I was young and used to dought my aiming point this had the effect of making me change my aim a split second before delivering the cue and of course miss. I used the ghost ball method too, the problem I had was that it allways looked like I was hitting the ball thick, so if I ignored what my brain and eyes were telling me and just pushed the cue through on the chosen line the ball would go in. Now this just wasn't good enough as under pressure the temptation to twich is too great so I began experimenting.
What I found was this, you first sight the ball using the ghost ball method.
If it looks and feels correct it most probley is so don't worry about these shots.
Where my method worked was if appeared I was hitting the ball thick I would then look at the angle/path the white would take after contact, I found that this angle made the pot look thin it (they cancelled each other out) had the effect comfirming my potting angle and I was able to push the cue through with confidence.
Now this works with any shot.
If it the contact looks thick and the second angle looks thick you are aiming thick.

If the contact looks thin and the second angle looks thin you are aiming thin.

Its only when these two angles cancell each other out the correct potting angle has been selected.

Here your using lots of information to confirm the potting angle.
The point of contact on the object ball and the path your eyes our telling you it will take towards the pocket.
The point of contact the white will make and the direction the white will take and and the path the ball will take to the pocket.
Hope this makes sense. I know his works because at the time my potting was of pro standard and I think the only reason It doesn't work for me now is down other factors. I think this is something similar to how SH sights the ball

Like the sound of that cheers will try that tonight fella.

[cazmac1]

No problem, It will be interesting to see how it works out for you.

[thelongbomber]

Sounds interesting mate.. so do you first find the actual contact point on the ball and then look at the spot on the cloth directly underneath it?

nope. If you draw a line from the pocket to the OB, the spot on the table directly behind becomes easy to visualize. I sometimes wonder if Stephen Hendry uses this method. I'm able to make side pocket shots (most of which are blind shots) with a lot of confidence.