elbow drop/ del hill

[stephenm2682]

do most coaches now recommend elbow drop, i've always done it like that as it feels natural, but read on here about keeping it still on contact?

after watching del hill on youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACqpubeGhus&NR=1

he says always drop the elbow to drive the ball, what about on slow shots?

also regarding the grip on follow through, do players grip the cue harder on impact or keep the same level all through the backswing and follow through?

cheers

[Terry Davidson]

The elbow drop is done to keep the cue as level as possible at the completion of tghe delivery where you must drive your grip hand all the way through to your chest.

As for gripping the cue, the grip should remain loose all the way through the shot and not tighten on the cue until the hand hits the chest. It's the back of the thumb hitting the chest which tightens the grip on the cue and never tighten it before that as you will be decelereating the cue as you go through the cueball.

On softer shots the follow through is limited a bit and the elbow drop is not necessary but the grip hand should still hit the chest if at all possible (if the 2 balls are not too close together).

Terry

[stephenm2682]

Terry, on the second part of that del hill video, he states that if you peck then you finish at the chest? so if you drive the ball then when you drop the elbow surely you'll miss the chest?

[Terry Davidson]

stephen:

Don't over-read what Del is saying there. Dropping the elbow to keep the cue level during the backswing and delivery, provided your grip is correctly loose enough, means the elbow drops about one inch on an 8in backswing and about two inches on a 6-7 inch follow-through.

Look at Ronnie or John Higgins to get the idea. They both have a long backswing and good follow-through and both drop their elbow at the endof the delivery after they've hit the cueball (Ronnie does it a touch early).

If you try and drop the elbow enough to miss your chest then you would have to drop it around 6 inches, depending on your forearm length and the problem with this is it gets the shoulder into the shot and promotes movement on the shot PLUS it would have the effect of raising the tip on the cueball or at the finish of the stroke, depending on when you start dropping the elbow.

I do not teach or advocate a severe drop of the elbow for these reasons and no more than 2 inches maximum is required AS LONG AS YOUR GRIP IS LOOSE AND FLUENT AND DOESN'T TIGHTEN ON THE CUE UNTIL WELL AFTER THE CUEBALL IS STRUCK.

The thumb hitting the chest is what should tighten the grip on the cue, pushing the thumb over towards the forefinger and 'squeezing' the cue, but this shouldn't happen until well after the cueball is struck, say at least 4-5 inches, depending on how much room you have between the back of the grip hand thumb and the chest when you're in the address position with the forearm hanging straight down and over the laces of your straight leg.

The thing you might see from either Ronnie or Higgins is on a real powerful screw shot they might drop the elbow up to 4 inches or so to get more follow-through and more acceleration through the cueball.

Joe Davis and Tony Knowles are the only 2 players I can remember who had a very severe elbow drop, Joe only on power shots and Tony on most shots.

Terry

[cazmac1]

I just starting to get to grips with the del hill drive. Big big fan, it takes a while to perfect it and takes lots of hard practice but when it clicks cuing is effortless. Have you seen my youtube page del hill coaching. OH I see that is my link

[CoachGavin]

Regarding the Del drive it is the elbow drop that closes the back of the hand when driving the ball. The hand opens as you bring the cue back and the elbow drop shuts the back of the hand back onto the cue again.

As far as I can tell Del advocates following the slope of the cue on the way back and this is different from keeping the cue level. The cue becomes parallel on the delivery as stated on the video. Ronnie tends to drop his elbow quite a lot especially on power shots.

Watch the two shots from 7:00 onwards. You can see his elbow dropping some way. Stephen Lee also drops his elbow a lot on power shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1s9oC5ebFs

However I do agree with Terry in that the elbow must always drop to stop the elbow acting as a pendulum and that it should drop after the cue ball is struck otherwise you are bringing the shoulder into the shot.

Hope that helps

[cazmac1]

thats the best description I've heard gavin, your spot on.

[stephenm2682]

casmac, sorry for the copyright infingement lol. if you close your eyes when taking the shot, surely that counteracts the looking at the object ball last theory? cause if your eyes are shut, then you could look anywhere.

would a player switch there eyes to the object ball on the pull back before hitting the cueball, or at the front pause? and keep them there

[cazmac1]

Del believe's that the most of the aim takes place before your fully down on the shot, hence the need for only two waggles a front pause then hit. If you get down on the shot and are not happy you should get back up a re-aim. I agree with him in that the aim should be done while in the standing position but not sure that I agree with the 2 waggles part. I think it depends on the type of shot and difficulty. If I was playing a long pressure black for a match I think I might take a little bit more time on the shot. I may be wrong with this approach.
What I will say is that when I played my best snooker I used to do 5 waggles.
Ps closing the eyes in just to point out that if your set correctly and you cue the white true you can pot any ball. But I would love to see someone make a break of 50+ doing this. Although I think ronnie could do it.

[Theguywithaplan]

I've just recently started dropping my elbow (not been coached on how to do it) and would just like to ask the coaches on here a few questions about the cue finishing on the chin. My current coach (who is old school) always has taught me to never drop my elbow but now says he doesnt mind as long as I try to keep my chin on the cue as much as possible. Anyway I watched a video of myself and noticed the cue was finishing below the chin maybe 5 or 6 inches However I was still potting long balls easily and this is mainly the case only when I've got my bridge hand on the cushion. Here is the video would appreciate it if you could have a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71VtMg3cqd8
Been cueing well with this in general although it could use a lot more practice. Managed 89 out of 100 long blues the other day, at one point got 33 in a row. Not bad when before I started dropped my best in a row was 9. :snooker:

[CoachGavin]

If the cue runs along the chin while the cue is on a slope I think the cue is bound to slightly come off the chin when it then finishes parallel. I think Ronnies drops slightly from his chin and I know mine does. If you are potting the balls then I do not think it matters. If it aint broke dont fix it etc

[bonoman1970]

ive watched Dells vidios with interest ,
I think he is fundamentally wrong.

[CoachGavin]

The guy with a plan:

As I understand it when using the drive technique the elbow should not drop on the backswing. This is achieved by the back of the grip in vertical with the elbow and the back of the hand opening as you bring the cue back. On screw shots especially follow the cue slope up. On your video in many of the shots your elbow drops as you pull the cue back so maybe this could be improved. I am not saying this is what you should do but this is perhaps the way if you want to follow the drive technique.

Hope that helps

[CoachGavin]

bonoman, what do you disagree with out of interest

[bonoman1970]

I just disagree with the dropping of the elbow ,
can only lead to an imperfect cue action....
HE only says it cause o'sullivan does it ,Davis ,Hendry at their best didnt do it..
they are both doing it now and struggling