elbow and shoulder

[davidwu]

Yes, open the back of the hand as you pull the cue back so that the cue stays on the plane. On the delievery the elbow drop will naturally cause the back of the hand to shut back onto the cue. This creates the power. I think Del does believe that the elbow should not drop on the backswing and I think this is where he varies from other coaches who say the elbow will drop on backswing AND delivery.

thanks, this explaination is easy to understand. but i guess it will take some practice before it becomes natural to me and my rythems.:snooker:

[cazmac1]

I've seen students concentrating on opening the hand intentionally and it throws their rhythm off, so now I tell them to let the cue do it and it will come naturally without any thought on their part.

This way they seem to keep their own natural rhythm better that when I was telling them to 'open the hand on the backswing' as they took that to mean to thing about it and thus force it.

Terry

I like this advice terry, I think it's the one think I'm struggling with. If I think about the hand I seem to miss. I suppose it will take time for the process to become second nature.

[DWOT]

Good stuff that, I'm half a pecker and half a driver!

[Theguywithaplan]

Good stuff that, I'm half a pecker and half a driver!

Same here. Could someone please tell me why Dell thinks not dropping the elbow on the backswing is important?

[cazmac1]

Same here. Could someone please tell me why Dell thinks not dropping the elbow on the backswing is important?

Basically, Their is just to much going on in the action.
If you drop the elbow on the back swing on draw back the elbow go's down..
then when returning the midway point or vertical it comes back up again...
Then on the follow through the elbow go's down again...
Del allways insists UP TO DOWN
Not down up down.
I also think it helps maintain the CCP which he says keeps the cue on line

[nrage]

Basically, Their is just to much going on in the action.
If you drop the elbow on the back swing on draw back the cue go's down..
then when returning the midway point or vertical it comes back up again...
Then on the follow through the cue go's down again...
Del allways insists UP TO DOWN
Not down up down.
I also think it helps maintain the CCP which he says keeps the cue on line

I thought the idea of elbow drop on the backswing was to keep the cue level, as opposed to lifting it.. if you're dropping the cue with elbow drop on the backswing then you're doing it wrong/too much.

I thought the idea behind all these things done during cueing, elbow drop, loose 2-4th fingers, etc is to keep the cue on the same plane/angle the whole way through the shot.

If you used no elbow drop, and had a tight grip your action would be like a pendulum, and the cue tip would move in opposition to that, i.e. back swing takes hand up, cue tip goes down, as the pendulum swings through the hand goes back to center then up, the cue tip goes back to center and then down.

[Terry Davidson]

nrage is correct. The whole idea of the elbow drop in the backswing and then later in the delivery is to keep the cue on the same plane.

Without it, on a longer backswing, the butt of the cue would rise and the tip would fall, which would lead to a 'scooping' motion of the tip as you return to the address position.

Since the cue is moving faster on the delivery this is much harder to control and it will therefore take absolutely perfect timing to have the tip return to EXACTLY the same height at the address position (or time of strike, same thing).

On the delivery the elbow drop will give more follow through, but more importantly will help to keep the cue on the bridge and again keep the cue on the same plane throughout the delivery (barring the tip running along the cloth on a deep screw that is).

Terry

[davidwu]

nrage is correct. The whole idea of the elbow drop in the backswing and then later in the delivery is to keep the cue on the same plane.

Without it, on a longer backswing, the butt of the cue would rise and the tip would fall, which would lead to a 'scooping' motion of the tip as you return to the address position.

Since the cue is moving faster on the delivery this is much harder to control and it will therefore take absolutely perfect timing to have the tip return to EXACTLY the same height at the address position (or time of strike, same thing).

On the delivery the elbow drop will give more follow through, but more importantly will help to keep the cue on the bridge and again keep the cue on the same plane throughout the delivery (barring the tip running along the cloth on a deep screw that is).

Terry

sorry terry, not trying to argue with u here, but does not the scooping motion gives more power and follow through? since this is what del is trying to explain where the cue travel down the slope and return to level. if this is the case then the cue should have a scooping motion.

[nrage]

sorry terry, not trying to argue with u here, but does not the scooping motion gives more power and follow through? since this is what del is trying to explain where the cue travel down the slope and return to level. if this is the case then the cue should have a scooping motion.

It's not an 'argument', it's a 'discussion' .. the more the merrier I say

I don't think a scoop would give more follow through, your arm will still stop in the same position in both cases.

It may be possible that a scooping motion at the exact time of contact leaves the cue tip in contact with the white longer, and gives more cue power/screw etc.. but if it were possible, the timing would have to be absolutely perfect, making it very hard to get right. And, until you get it right your cue tip may not be coming back to where you intend to strike the ball, meaning more/less screw/top etc than you intended.

There are some fabulous high speed camera shots of all sorts of things available here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/

I wonder if there is anything on scooping cues there..

[DWOT]

I dont live too far away from his "Farm" and I recon some time spent there will do me and my game the world of good.

[cazmac1]

I thought the idea of elbow drop on the backswing was to keep the cue level, as opposed to lifting it.. if you're dropping the cue with elbow drop on the backswing then you're doing it wrong/too much.

I thought the idea behind all these things done during cueing, elbow drop, loose 2-4th fingers, etc is to keep the cue on the same plane/angle the whole way through the shot.

If you used no elbow drop, and had a tight grip your action would be like a pendulum, and the cue tip would move in opposition to that, i.e. back swing takes hand up, cue tip goes down, as the pendulum swings through the hand goes back to center then up, the cue tip goes back to center and then down.

Sorry narge, My wording is wrong in the my post I should have said elbow rarther than cue. Hope it makes more sense this way

[Manu147]

Having listened to dell, he describes ronnies cue action as the text book for the modern player, but yet ronnie drops his elbow on backswing on every single shot, somewhat contrary to his ideas of pecker and driver, not saying he is wrong, but most top pros drop their elbow to some slight degree on backswing, so not sure whether u can take this point of up to down as factually accurate, in my opinion of course.

[Theguywithaplan]

Having listened to dell, he describes ronnies cue action as the text book for the modern player, but yet ronnie drops his elbow on backswing on every single shot, somewhat contrary to his ideas of pecker and driver, not saying he is wrong, but most top pros drop their elbow to some slight degree on backswing, so not sure whether u can take this point of up to down as factually accurate, in my opinion of course.

I don't think I've ever seen ronnie drop his elbow on the backswing to be honest. Watch this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1s9oC5ebFs
Have to say though I still don't see the advantage of not dropping it.

[CoachGavin]

I have tried both methods and actually have just come from the club after messing with them. Ronnie does drop his elbow sometimes on the backswing but it is rare. Dels method is for simplicity. He says that the cue can be taken back using the wrist so that the elbow does not need to drop. The dropping of the elbow on follow through makes sure that the cue finishes parallel and allows the cue to go through much further - this is because the grip does not finish up in the chest. I do agree with Del that this method is easier in someways and under pressure I think it is the better becuase for me personally i find it a far harder action to drop, raise and then drop the elbow and I also think it is not that natural - this is from my own experience of playing.

Oh yeah and the drive is more of a scooping action as it relies on gravity helping to cue down the slope before levelling off whereas the 'standard' action is to keep the cue parallel throughout.

To be honest I think Dels main concern is players who take the cue back parallel rather than back along the plane. These are 2 different things. If a player brings the cue back parallel when playing a screw shot then the tip will rise and on delivery the brain compensates by striking low at the last minute. The grip then finishes high under the arm pit and results in a snatch. Personally I think what you need to remember is that the cue plane needs to be followed on the backswing and the way you hold the cue and length of backswing will determine whether the elbow drops.

Hope this helps a little.

Gav

[Terry Davidson]

I think Gavin has it right although who are we to differ in opinion with the great Del Hill?

The comment regarding the 'scooping' of the tip allowing for more power begs belief and I would love for someone to explain that to me as I cannot see how it possibly can. You can only achieve more power with three things, quicker acceleration, longer backswing or else the 'wrist-flick' as per Jimmy White or Steve James.

Now let's get to the heart of the matter. It is possible to keep the cue on the same plane by using a very loose grip and having the cue/forefinger angle change significantly during the backswing which will keep the cue on the same plane.

However, when you look at videos of Ronnie lmake sure you review all his shots during 2-3 frames and you will see he drops his elbow sometimes depending on the length of backswing he uses.

The correct statement (and technique) for having an elbow drop at the end of the backswing IS WHEN YOU ARE PULLING THE CUE BACK OVER 6 INCHES in a long backswing. For a short backswing of under 6in there is no need to drop the elbow.

BUT, even with a 9in backswing the elbow only has to drop LESS THAN 1in as long as the grip is flexible and loose enough.

I would defy any player to pull the cue back 9-10in and NOT have to drop his elbow to keep the cue on the same plane. In fact, let's all go to the SnookerFarm and challenge Del to do that because I will guarantee you he will either drop his elbow or if he doesn't the butt of the cue will rise and the cue will go off the plane from the address position. This is pure physics and a low of nature and cannot change. (Is that too rigid a staement?)

For whoever said Ronnie doesn't drop his elbow I can guarantee you he doesn't on every shot but he definitely does when he backswings long, and also remember Ronnie doesn't use his forefinger to control the backswing but rather his middle 2 fingers which gives him a little more backswing length before he has to drop the elbow.

But don't take my word for it, review videos of John Higgins, (Alex Higgins too), Shaun Murphy, Maguire and especially the Jester from Leicester and you will note they all drop their elbows on long backswings.

Dare I say it, the player best known for NOT dropping his elbow in his prime is Steve Davis and even he will drop the elbow slightly on a power shot where he uses a very long backswing.

Terry