How long did it take?

[jrc750]

Yes good post firefrets, don't feel so bad now not reaching my 1st 50
45,47 & a 48 recently, but last night in 8 frames my highest was a pathetic 16

[Citrus138]

Just a question for the coaches on here.

Before you begin actually coaching, do you ask your student 'how good do you realistically want to be?'or 'to what standard do you want play realistically?

To me, I'm not entirely sure how much benefit the student/coach gets out of a session/sessions if neither know to what target they are aiming.

[firefrets]

Great, great post firefrets. You're the best thing that's happened to the forum for a while.

Wow, I'm not really used to such kind words from folks, but thanks very much, and hope I can be of help while I'm here.

You know, most of the reasons why you don't find any levels of consistency is because you don't have a stringent set of steps in which to get your basic game working well.

I have a little fairy tale that I thought might be good for teaching kids, which goes through all the basic steps of addressing and executing a shot, and have been trying for the last hour to write it out in such a way that folks might benefit from it.

Problem is I keep falling asleep at the keyboard lol as I'm knackered.

I'll stick with it, and if I can get it to work I will. What takes me an hour to type I can explain and demonstrate in 2 minutes.

[firefrets]

Just a question for the coaches on here.

Before you begin actually coaching, do you ask your student 'how good do you realistically want to be?'or 'to what standard do you want play realistically?

To me, I'm not entirely sure how much benefit the student/coach gets out of a session/sessions if neither know to what target they are aiming.

I can't speak for full time professional coaches, as I'm certainly not a full time professional coach, but I would answer no to your question.

How good you aspire to be is down to how much effort you put in, in practising what has been suggested to you. No coach or player can turn you into a better player or offer guarantees towards how good you will become.

All they can do is put you on the right path, and guide you. The effort must come from your own enthusiasm and dedication to succeed.

I see things immidiately when I watch someone play, regardless of who they are. Knowing the difference between a variation upon a theme, and a real bad habit is important. You don't always have a blank canvas to work with, and sometimes (or in my case most times lol) the players you help can be better players than yourself. Half the time it's just a confidence problem, or they might be struggling to get into the zone, and need a bit of inspiration. Everyone has a person that makes them feel good about their game. I used to have a captain called John when I was a kid, that used to fill me with confidence and make me believe I was the greatest player on the planet.

[Citrus138]

I can't speak for full time professional coaches, as I'm certainly not a full time professional coach, but I would answer no to your question.

How good you aspire to be is down to how much effort you put in, in practising what has been suggested to you. No coach or player can turn you into a better player or offer guarantees towards how good you will become.

All they can do is put you on the right path, and guide you. The effort must come from your own enthusiasm and dedication to succeed.

I see things immidiately when I watch someone play, regardless of who they are. Knowing the difference between a variation upon a theme, and a real bad habit is important. You don't always have a blank canvas to work with, and sometimes (or in my case most times lol) the players you help can be better players than yourself. Half the time it's just a confidence problem, or they might be struggling to get into the zone, and need a bit of inspiration. Everyone has a person that makes them feel good about their game. I used to have a captain called John when I was a kid, that used to fill me with confidence and make me believe I was the greatest player on the planet.

I think it's important to ask those questions, and here's why IMO.
I'm using a golf analogy here because I know marginally more about golf coaching than snooker coaching.
It is my belief that players can only reach a certain level of proficiency, because that how we are hardwired. Not everyone can be a brilliant at snooker/golf, regardless of how much practise they put in or how much coaching thet receive. We all have limits.

For example. A golfer playing off a handicap of 36, with all the technical flaws and faults of a player of that standard, never going to become a scratch golfer, no matter how good the coach is, or how much dedication the player puts in on the practise ground. This is just a fact of life. So for the coach to even attempt to completely eradicate very single flaw and fault in the players game would be futile. That would only lead to misery and even more frustration on the players part.
In my experience, it is much better to set achievable targets and goals. For the 36 handicapper, that would be giving him the tools and knowledge of how to get the best out of his game.
Let's face it, if a player came to you that had been playing snooker for 20 years and his highest break was 19, and then told you that he wanted you to coach him so that he could turn pro, it would be slightly unfair to pretend that you could help him achieve it.
So, in order that both the coach and the pupil can benefit to the maximum from a coaching session, surely a benchmark must first be set. No?

[firefrets]

I think it's important to ask those questions, and here's why IMO.
I'm using a golf analogy here because I know marginally more about golf coaching than snooker coaching.
It is my belief that players can only reach a certain level of proficiency, because that how we are hardwired. Not everyone can be a brilliant at snooker/golf, regardless of how much practise they put in or how much coaching thet receive. We all have limits.

For example. A golfer playing off a handicap of 36, with all the technical flaws and faults of a player of that standard, never going to become a scratch golfer, no matter how good the coach is, or how much dedication the player puts in on the practise ground. This is just a fact of life. So for the coach to even attempt to completely eradicate very single flaw and fault in the players game would be futile. That would only lead to misery and even more frustration on the players part.
In my experience, it is much better to set achievable targets and goals. For the 36 handicapper, that would be giving him the tools and knowledge of how to get the best out of his game.
Let's face it, if a player came to you that had been playing snooker for 20 years and his highest break was 19, and then told you that he wanted you to coach him so that he could turn pro, it would be slightly unfair to pretend that you could help him achieve it.
So, in order that both the coach and the pupil can benefit to the maximum from a coaching session, surely a benchmark must first be set. No?

Again I say no.

For example. A golfer playing off a handicap of 36, with all the technical flaws and faults of a player of that standard, never going to become a scratch golfer, no matter how good the coach is, or how much dedication the player puts in on the practise ground. This is just a fact of life. So for the coach to even attempt to completely eradicate very single flaw and fault in the players game would be futile. That would only lead to misery and even more frustration on the players part.

I disagree. A player playing poor golf, and having all the flaws as you put it has as much chance of becoming a scratch golfer as anybody else, and to say it is 'futile' to consider eradicating the very things that stand in his way of achieving this, is rather defeatist.

There are 2 types of players who reach professional level in a sport.

A player who has natural ability, and works his ass off to get where he wants to be, and a player who perhaps doesn't have natural ability, but works his ass off to get where he wants to be.

Both have to work very hard to achieve success. Both would be that struggling 36 handicap golfer had they not put the effort in and took the chance.

'Misery and frustration' as you put it, are traits born from not changing a situation.

Show me the most useless snooker player in the world, and I'll show you a player that with corrective coaching, a strict practise regime, and a positive attitude, can achieve a wonderful level.

He might not make it to professional level, but you need to undestand that professionals make up a minute percentage of players, and just because you can't be the next Tiger Woods doesn't mean you can't be a great golfer.

In my experience, it is much better to set achievable targets and goals. For the 36 handicapper, that would be giving him the tools and knowledge of how to get the best out of his game.
Let's face it, if a player came to you that had been playing snooker for 20 years and his highest break was 19, and then told you that he wanted you to coach him so that he could turn pro, it would be slightly unfair to pretend that you could help him achieve it.
So, in order that both the coach and the pupil can benefit to the maximum from a coaching session, surely a benchmark must first be set. No?

What 'is' your experience?

Targets and goals are personal things. There is no examination board that I'm aware of in the game of snooker.

As for a guy that came to me with no ability, after 20 years, and told me he wanted to become a professional, I'd ask him what 'he' was prepared to do in order to reach professional status.

I don't think a coach or teacher would have to 'pretend' anything. They can still offer the coaching. It's up to the guy to do the rest.

The requirements are the same for everybody. No matter who you are, you can shop for ingredients. You still have to put them together and bake the cake yourself.

If you're looking for a teacher to practise for you, then you'll be looking for a long time.

A 147 is only 36 shots, but there is a lifetime of study for each shot. Do you think Ronnie Osullivan has stopped learning now he has scored one?

The trouble with snooker is that it is restricted in how many balls there are, and the value of each ball. The only thing you can keep reinventing is what you do with them.

[magicman]

Originally Posted by Citrus138

A golfer playing off a handicap of 36, with all the technical flaws and faults of a player of that standard, never going to become a scratch golfer, no matter how good the coach is, or how much dedication the player puts in on the practise ground. This is just a fact of life. So for the coach to even attempt to completely eradicate every single flaw and fault in the players game would be futile. That would only lead to misery and even more frustration on the players part.

firefrets:

I disagree. A player playing poor golf, and having all the flaws as you put it has as much chance of becoming a scratch golfer as anybody else

Ok, sorry to rain on the parade of your wonderful welcome firefrets, but this is blatantly ridiculous. A 36 handicapper, with technical faults and flaws has as much chance as anybody else? What? As much chance as the 13 year old son of a pro golfer living on a golf-course already playing off a 4 handicap?

There are limits to people's ability, both physically and mentally. You can't tell me, can you, that a poorly educated person with an IQ of 95 can become a brain surgeon, regardless of their effort? A short, over-weight 38 year old with little talent in sprinting will never win the 100m at the Olympics, no matter what they do. So, accepting the premise that humans have limitations, we therefore can conclude that not anyone can achieve anything.

Good posts though firefrets, non the less.

[jonplayer]

Good posts you guys. But I'm with you Magicman - In a ideal world firefrets would be right. But life is not ideal, believe me I know this. Becoming a pro is like accelarating towards the speed of light, as you get close you become heavier and it takes exponentially more energy to accelarate further. You need heaps of ability, patience, mental strength, time, money, no Wife, only some drink and drugs and luck.

[Citrus138]

I disagree. A player playing poor golf, and having all the flaws as you put it has as much chance of becoming a scratch golfer as anybody else, and to say it is 'futile' to consider eradicating the very things that stand in his way of achieving this, is rather defeatist.

With all due respect, that is utter rubbish. With all ball sports, one has to have an understanding of ball flight, spin, bounce, swerve etc. Some people, no matter how much they want to improve, or how much time they put into improving just don't have that built in 'feel' for those aspects of ball sports.
There are 2 types of players who reach professional level in a sport.

A player who has natural ability, and works his ass off to get where he wants to be and a player who perhaps doesn't have natural ability, but works his ass off to get where he wants to be.

Both have to work very hard to achieve success. Both would be that struggling 36 handicap golfer had they not put the effort in and took the chance.
No. Because we all have a certain amount of that special something that defines what level we are able to achieve. How many times have you seen that player with the perfect cue action that doesn't pot half the amount of balls that he should, compared to the player with the inferior cue action that pots balls left, right and centre

'Misery and frustration' as you put it, are traits born from not changing a situation. Or believing that you can reach a level that is beyond you

Show me the most useless snooker player in the world, and I'll show you a player that with corrective coaching, a strict practise regime, and a positive attitude, can achieve a wonderful level. You may be able to coach them to hold the cue, stand and stay down on shots correctly, but how do you coach feel, how to see an angle, visualise building a break or how be creative during the break etc. Feel is a built in thing, and the other skills can only be learnt through experience and an understanding of the game.

He might not make it to professional level, but you need to undestand that professionals make up a minute percentage of players, and just because you can't be the next Tiger Woods doesn't mean you can't be a great golfer.



What 'is' your experience? A friend of mine you spent hundreds of pounds and hours on lessons and practise. Spent over 20 hours a week striving to improve, and in the end all he achieved was probably 2 or 3% improvement. He then asked me why it was going wrong and why he wasn't improving, and I told him that what works on the driving range, doesn't naturally convert to results on the golf course. We then, over a period of a few week of playing together and discussing his game, found that shot selection, course management, and playing shots that were comfortable for him were getting better results. He went from a handicap of 24 to 15 in 4 weeks.
Now he may not have be playing text book shots with a text book swing, but he got to a level that he was happy with, instead of trying to build a pretty, but ineffective looking golf swing.

Targets and goals are personal things. There is no examination board that I'm aware of in the game of snooker.

As for a guy that came to me with no ability, after 20 years, and told me he wanted to become a professional, I'd ask him what 'he' was prepared to do in order to reach professional status.

I don't think a coach or teacher would have to 'pretend' anything. They can still offer the coaching. It's up to the guy to do the rest.

The requirements are the same for everybody. No matter who you are, you can shop for ingredients. You still have to put them together and bake the cake yourself.

If you're looking for a teacher to practise for you, then you'll be looking for a long time.I agree.on that point

A 147 is only 36 shots, but there is a lifetime of study for each shot. Do you think Ronnie Osullivan has stopped learning now he has scored one?

The trouble with snooker is that it is restricted in how many balls there are, and the value of each ball. The only thing you can keep reinventing is what you do with them.

I believe we may have to agree to disagree. But I would say this on coaching.
My belief is that while coaching may be able to cure faults in technique, it doesn't mean that it is automatic road to improvement. As I said above, how can one coach feel, touch, or how to see an angle.

I speaking as someone who is completely self taught at golf (6 handicap) and snooker (60/70 + century breaks, and fairly competent in pro-ams that I've entered), maybe i'm missing something. But I can only speak from my own experiences in both golf and snooker, and by witnessing plenty of people playing sport, wanting to improve, practicing hard, receiving coaching, and then questioning why they are not playing to the level that they desire.

Maybe they should be realising that we can't get to where we want to be, no matter how hard we strive for it.

[DG GIBERT]

You can teach a donkey to run faster but you cannot turn it into a race horse.

[<CuePower>]

I believe we may have to agree to disagree. But I would say this on coaching.
My belief is that while coaching may be able to cure faults in technique, it doesn't mean that it is automatic road to improvement. As I said above, how can one coach feel, touch, or how to see an angle.

I speaking as someone who is completely self taught at golf (6 handicap) and snooker (60/70 + century breaks, and fairly competent in pro-ams that I've entered), maybe i'm missing something. But I can only speak from my own experiences in both golf and snooker, and by witnessing plenty of people playing sport, wanting to improve, practicing hard, receiving coaching, and then questioning why they are not playing to the level that they desire.

Maybe they should be realising that we can't get to where we want to be, no matter how hard we strive for it.

It sound like you have a great deal of natural hand eye co-ordination and talent - do you play other similar sports tennis, badminton, squash, cricket etc. I'm competent at all sports I try as I have relatively good hand eye co-ordination and it helps to have natural ability and feel for speed and movement. I would have to agree with Magicman for this reason alone. Natural ability gives a step up before you even start and it doesn't disappear as you get older - only the physics of playing a competitive sport slow you down. Yes your eyesight might start going as you get older but I still feel like I can over the next few months start to play snooker as well as I played 10-15yrs ago.

[firefrets]

firefrets:



Ok, sorry to rain on the parade of your wonderful welcome firefrets, but this is blatantly ridiculous. A 36 handicapper, with technical faults and flaws has as much chance as anybody else? What? As much chance as the 13 year old son of a pro golfer living on a golf-course already playing off a 4 handicap?

There are limits to people's ability, both physically and mentally. You can't tell me, can you, that a poorly educated person with an IQ of 95 can become a brain surgeon, regardless of their effort? A short, over-weight 38 year old with little talent in sprinting will never win the 100m at the Olympics, no matter what they do. So, accepting the premise that humans have limitations, we therefore can conclude that not anyone can achieve anything.

Good posts though firefrets, non the less.

I don't remember charging you for my opinion.

Your inability to think outside the box though is likely the reason why you'll not succeed.

If you want me to discuss the issue further with you by all means send me a cheque for £60, on the hour, every hour, and I'll gladly chat more to you despite knowing that my opinion is rediculous in your eyes.

[firefrets]

I believe we may have to agree to disagree. But I would say this on coaching.
My belief is that while coaching may be able to cure faults in technique, it doesn't mean that it is automatic road to improvement. As I said above, how can one coach feel, touch, or how to see an angle.

I speaking as someone who is completely self taught at golf (6 handicap) and snooker (60/70 + century breaks, and fairly competent in pro-ams that I've entered), maybe i'm missing something. But I can only speak from my own experiences in both golf and snooker, and by witnessing plenty of people playing sport, wanting to improve, practicing hard, receiving coaching, and then questioning why they are not playing to the level that they desire.

Maybe they should be realising that we can't get to where we want to be, no matter how hard we strive for it.

Damn, I wish I'd had 60 or 70 centuries. I feel my life has now been a complete waste.

[firefrets]

Again I say no.



I disagree. A player playing poor golf, and having all the flaws as you put it has as much chance of becoming a scratch golfer as anybody else, and to say it is 'futile' to consider eradicating the very things that stand in his way of achieving this, is rather defeatist.

There are 2 types of players who reach professional level in a sport.

A player who has natural ability, and works his ass off to get where he wants to be, and a player who perhaps doesn't have natural ability, but works his ass off to get where he wants to be.

Both have to work very hard to achieve success. Both would be that struggling 36 handicap golfer had they not put the effort in and took the chance.

'Misery and frustration' as you put it, are traits born from not changing a situation.

Show me the most useless snooker player in the world, and I'll show you a player that with corrective coaching, a strict practise regime, and a positive attitude, can achieve a wonderful level.

He might not make it to professional level, but you need to undestand that professionals make up a minute percentage of players, and just because you can't be the next Tiger Woods doesn't mean you can't be a great golfer.



What 'is' your experience?

Targets and goals are personal things. There is no examination board that I'm aware of in the game of snooker.

As for a guy that came to me with no ability, after 20 years, and told me he wanted to become a professional, I'd ask him what 'he' was prepared to do in order to reach professional status.

I don't think a coach or teacher would have to 'pretend' anything. They can still offer the coaching. It's up to the guy to do the rest.

The requirements are the same for everybody. No matter who you are, you can shop for ingredients. You still have to put them together and bake the cake yourself.

If you're looking for a teacher to practise for you, then you'll be looking for a long time.

A 147 is only 36 shots, but there is a lifetime of study for each shot. Do you think Ronnie Osullivan has stopped learning now he has scored one?

The trouble with snooker is that it is restricted in how many balls there are, and the value of each ball. The only thing you can keep reinventing is what you do with them.

Highlighted for those who don't read, yet steamroller in regardless.

[DG GIBERT]

What would be more productive, several hours in one day per week practice or
one hour every day of the week? ending up with similar hours per week.