How long did it take?

[firefrets]

What would be more productive, several hours in one day per week practice or
one hour every day of the week? ending up with similar hours per week.

Your brain can only digest so much information in one time. In order to get the most out of lessons you should be able to take each lesson, practise it inside out, and then add it to your repertoire.

How much you take in, keep in, and become proficient at is an individual thing that should be assessed by your coach before moving on to the next lesson.

There is no point moving on until you've mastered the previous exercise, and you might find recapping once per month on the previous weeks lessons helps to make it sink in.

Lots of players can play, but it takes a skill in it's own right to teach. Judging the pace at which the student learns is often key.

Some coaches do 4 hour sessions. You can get through an awful lot in 4 hours but you won't remember it all. It's important that the 4 hours are structured to your needs.

It's impossible to structure a lesson for someone you've never met before, so I look upon 4 hour sessions as nothing more than covering coaches wages.

I taught guitar in 45 minute sessions. I can teach you to pick the guitar up for the very first time, and go through every single technique needed to master a jazz standard in 30 minutes, but you'll not get past the first 30 seconds of the lesson without needing to go away and practise for a month.

Too much info in one go is pointless and defeats the object to the point of making the whole lesson a disaster.

[thelongbomber]

I've coached people at all levels throughout my playing days, be it taking a quick look at a fellow players cue action, to meeting someone for a scheduled coaching session, and every one of them are different, and with different requirements.

This comment needs reconsideration:


Some guys play pool for years before ever playing snooker. Some have never picked a cue up in their life, and the closest they've ever come to self discipline and dedication is to scratch their balls every morning.

'Some' people will go on to make a 50 break in 6 months. The majority won't, and for the simple reason, that there is so much development needed, both in technique, and understanding, and also psychological conditioning.

I can take a complete novice, and over a course of lessons show him or her how to approach the game, and how to play each shot, but what I can't do is give them physical or mental memory, nor can I recreate situations for them in a way that they are able to overcome inhibitions, or give them the courage and convictions needed to make a break.

I can't change the licensing laws that allow them on the premises, nor can I change the opening times of the local facilities. Neither can I change the work schedules of the individual, or the family commitments, or the amount of folks that just happen to be in the club at the same time they want to play.

I can't change the finances of each individual which in turn dictate how often they can play, or how often they can afford to pay for lessons, or how much they can spend on equipment or further learning resources.

I can't sell them an attention span, or perfect eyesight, or physical fitness, and I can't make them remember anything, other than offer them certain ways of learning and encourage improvement and perseverance.

All these things take time, and for the majority of people, their learning is life long, as opposed to fast track. Different age groups have better learning capacities than others too.

For most people, learning doesn't comprise of 8 hour instruction on a daily basis, with an experienced coach, capable of guiding them right through each step on their way to their first century.

Most will learn bad habits from their friends, or from people who 'think' they know what they're talking about. Most will play one or 2 nights per week, and probably play 4 hours maximum per night, of which 80% of that time is taken up picking balls out for their more experienced practise partner, or drinking beer and chatting socially.

Over a period of 6 months, their 'social snooker' time will be less than 200 hours, and by the time it's broken down in to actually playing, we're probably looking at less than 30 hours of mindful practise.


I would hazard a guess that less than 20% of people who take up the game will hit a 50 break more than 10 times in their entire lives, without getting help from someone who knows what they're doing.

Even guys who know how to play every shot, and have knocked in century breaks regularly will struggle to make regular 50 breaks should their circumstances change, and their hours at the table become reduced, or even stopped, for a period.

.....................

Now then. Give me a 13 year old lad, with the desire to dedicate their immidiate future to the sport of snooker, and give me enough regular hours with him that I can establish momentum, and avoid reversal, and my success rate at taking the 13 year old lad from zero to 50, inside 6 months increases dramatically.

Give him a cue that works for him, and give him the right attitude to believe in both himself, and indeed me, and my chances of getting him to a regular 50 break standard improves all the time.

There is so much to learn and so much dedication required that sometimes as seasoned players we forget just how difficult the game is to someone who is just beginning.

I'm sure deep down you truly believed at the time of writing what you wrote, but I'm also sure, that as a mature adult, when you stop to actually reflect, you'll agree that your statement was a tad optimistic to say the least.

I could list every ingredient I personally feel it would take to make a player who can knock regular 50 breaks in, and I'd still be here writing my book at the end of the month, such is the vast amount of knowledge we've accumuated over the years, in which to become a complete player.

Just getting 'one' 50 break is something in itself, but being able to amass 50 points from most given situations takes real skill and experience, and no way will a fresh egg reach any where near the required level in such a short space of time, without massive factors being in their favour.

I also taught guitar too, just for the record, and the principles are not dissimilar.

.............................

Bravo. Great post. It's the idea that most players don't know what they don't know. I had that experience this week when trying to pick out the cue ball path. A friend suggested a new technique to me that let me "see" where the cue ball would typically go after contact with the OB. I didn't even know that I didn't know it until he showed it to me!!

[Citrus138]

Damn, I wish I'd had 60 or 70 centuries. I feel my life has now been a complete waste.

Just using myself to highlight the fact that I don't believe coaching to be the nirvana that you believe it is.

I don't remember charging you for my opinion.

Your inability to think outside the box though is likely the reason why you'll not succeed.

If you want me to discuss the issue further with you by all means send me a cheque for £60, on the hour, every hour, and I'll gladly chat more to you despite knowing that my opinion is rediculous in your eyes.

And there we have it. Charge £60 an hour, on the promise of perfection. Ever though about selling TV's to blind people?

Highlighted for those who don't read, yet steamroller in regardless.

I notice that instead of answering my questions, that you instead belittle the posters not agreeing with every word you say. Interesting.

[firefrets]

Just using myself to highlight the fact that I don't believe coaching to be the nirvana that you believe it is.



And there we have it. Charge £60 an hour, on the promise of perfection. Ever though about selling TV's to blind people?


I notice that instead of answering my questions, that you instead belittle the posters not agreeing with every word you say. Interesting.

Actually bud, I tend to judge folks on how they treat others in a debate, and you need a little 'tact' if you're ever to be succsessful on forums.

With all due respect, that is utter rubbish

Original Source: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...#ixzz1FxyVlOgR
TSF - TheSnookerForum.com

Not that you'll be interested, but I don't believe it to be useful for everybody.

Had you read what I wrote, as a whole, rather than jumping in with a presumption of what you thought I meant, then I'm fairly sure we'd not be discussing this particular point.

I offer folks advice. I accept folks advice. There is something for everyone here regarding cue sports.

If you disagree wth something, then that's just fine, as I certainly don't know it all, and I'm willing to listen to anything tha will improve me as a player, or a person, but at the same time, try to be respectful with it.

I'm no different than anyone else, in that I too can read something I disagree with, but how you put your point across will have others judge your character, and respond to you accordingly.

Perhaps your 'utter rubbish' comment, might have been better put, especially as I responded to your 'just a question' request.

Perhaps you see me as a certain type of guy behind the screen, but I'm one of the lads, just like you mate, and could have easily told you what to do with your comment, but I think I've been nice to be fair.

However, until the attitude changes, I have the choice to correspond with many thousand of members here, and your name is no longer toip of the list, '6 handicap and 70 centuries' or not.

[Citrus138]

Actually bud, I tend to judge folks on how they treat others in a debate, and you need a little 'tact' if you're ever to be succsessful on forums.
Not sure where I've been 'untactful', merely disagreed with your points, and stated my opinion. There is no attitude from me I can assure you. Crikey, how will I live with myself if I'm not 'successful on a snooker forum'! I ask you!


Not that you'll be interested, but I don't believe it to be useful for everybody.

Had you read what I wrote, as a whole, rather than jumping in with a presumption of what you thought I meant, then I'm fairly sure we'd not be discussing this particular point.

I offer folks advice. I accept folks advice. There is something for everyone here regarding cue sports.

If you disagree wth something, then that's just fine, as I certainly don't know it all, and I'm willing to listen to anything tha will improve me as a player, or a person, but at the same time, try to be respectful with it.

I'm no different than anyone else, in that I too can read something I disagree with, but how you put your point across will have others judge your character, and respond to you accordingly.

Perhaps your 'utter rubbish' comment, might have been better put, especially as I responded to your 'just a question' request.

Perhaps you see me as a certain type of guy behind the screen, but I'm one of the lads, just like you mate, and could have easily told you what to do with your comment, but I think I've been nice to be fair.

However, until the attitude changes, I have the choice to correspond with many thousand of members here, and your name is no longer toip of the list, '6 handicap and 70 centuries' or not. Shame. Thought we had a good debate going on there. Guess not

Look, I have no idea who you are, maybe your a Pro, or a highly qualified coach, most likely a better player than me. That's all fine by me, I'm not on here proclaiming to be the best thing since sliced bread, nor am I in any way suggesting that coaching is utter garbage. But what I am saying is that there is more than one way for a player to improve, but not everyone can get to a standard that they dream of, no matter how much they want it, no matter wether they take the route of coaching or self coaching. That is all.

[DG GIBERT]

thank you for your time firefret.

[firefrets]

Look, I have no idea who you are, maybe your a Pro, or a highly qualified coach, most likely a better player than me. That's all fine by me, I'm not on here proclaiming to be the best thing since sliced bread, nor am I in any way suggesting that coaching is utter garbage. But what I am saying is that there is more than one way for a player to improve, but not everyone can get to a standard that they dream of, no matter how much they want it, no matter wether they take the route of coaching or self coaching. That is all.

The 'tactful' comment referred to your use of the phrase 'utter rubbish', and if you need that explaining to you, then you'll find a lot of arguments around the corner.

Nobody is disagreeing with your point regarding people achieving varying levels of abilities, regardless of coaching, but I don't think I've written anything to suggest that either.

What I will tell you is that coaching improves your play regardless of who you are, as learning it all by yourself is the same as jumping off a cliff to see what the result will be. It's much easier to ask.

Much of what you read requires interpretation, rather than presumption. If in doubt, it's often best to simply state your own view, rather than rubbish someone elses.

Perhaps read back, and point out to me the bits where you disagree with. It's of no use writing within my quote, as when I quote 'you' I can't read what you've written.

Use the quote facility in the speech box.

Most of all, drop the attitude. What would life be like here if 'we all' left our manners at the door step?

All the best.

[Citrus138]

The 'tactful' comment referred to your use of the phrase 'utter rubbish', and if you need that explaining to you, then you'll find a lot of arguments around the corner.

Nobody is disagreeing with your point regarding people achieving varying levels of abilities, regardless of coaching, but I don't think I've written anything to suggest that either.

What I will tell you is that coaching improves your play regardless of who you are, as learning it all by yourself is the same as jumping off a cliff to see what the result will be. It's much easier to ask.

Much of what you read requires interpretation, rather than presumption. If in doubt, it's often best to simply state your own view, rather than rubbish someone elses.

Perhaps read back, and point out to me the bits where you disagree with. It's of no use writing within my quote, as when I quote 'you' I can't read what you've written.

Use the quote facility in the speech box.

Most of all, drop the attitude. What would life be like here if 'we all' left our manners at the door step?

All the best.

As for the 'utter rubbish' remark, I stand by that. Sorry that you're so touchy about that.

And don't patronise me. I understand fully what you've written in your posts, and I've already said on many occasions that 'my opinion' differs from yours. How is that confrontational. It's the entire point of a forum, to debate, and read differing views from different people, and then discuss then and maybe even debunk them.

And attitude, well I'm not sure where you get that from. Just because my opinion differs from yours, on an Internet forum, on a subject that we both know a little about, doesn't make me some kind of forum thug.
I asked you a question about coaching, of which I'm pretty confident I already know the answer (maybe you'll call me arrogant now), and for whatever reason you havent answered it, even though you've had 3 chances to do so. Instead, you accuse me of lacking 'tact', then accuse me of 'wading' into your posts, and finally accuse me of being rude/lacking manners.

Just because I'm not fawning all over you, and not hanging on every word you post, you've decided that I'm some sort of arrogant, bad mannered lout, that should have no place on an snooker forum!!

If that the case, then you are a bad judge of character at best, and someone who talks down to people at worst.

[firefrets]

As for the 'utter rubbish' remark, I stand by that. Sorry that you're so touchy about that.

And don't patronise me. I understand fully what you've written in your posts, and I've already said on many occasions that 'my opinion' differs from yours. How is that confrontational. It's the entire point of a forum, to debate, and read differing views from different people, and then discuss then and maybe even debunk them.

And attitude, well I'm not sure where you get that from. Just because my opinion differs from yours, on an Internet forum, on a subject that we both know a little about, doesn't make me some kind of forum thug.
I asked you a question about coaching, of which I'm pretty confident I already know the answer (maybe you'll call me arrogant now), and for whatever reason you havent answered it, even though you've had 3 chances to do so. Instead, you accuse me of lacking 'tact', then accuse me of 'wading' into your posts, and finally accuse me of being rude/lacking manners.

Just because I'm not fawning all over you, and not hanging on every word you post, you've decided that I'm some sort of arrogant, bad mannered lout, that should have no place on an snooker forum!!

If that the case, then you are a bad judge of character at best, and someone who talks down to people at worst.

Sorry mate, but you come across as having a bit of a chip on your shoulder.
I think I've already given too much of my time in entertaining you.

I've already had 3 chances?

That's jolly kind of you to give me 3 chances, but to be honest pal I'm not really interested in having a conversation with a gobby wannabe. There are thousands of members here much more friendly, and interesting than you, or do you find that too hard to believe?

If you don't like what I write then feel free to read someone elses posts.

Who cares if you've had 70 centuries or play golf off 6? The very fact that you felt the need to mention that is rather amusing, especially on a forum full of professional players and members who make their living from the sport.

There are all types of players here, and all types of standards. Any opinion I offer is for those who want to read it, but I don't force it on anyone, and those who don't need it don't have to read it.

None of us are here to be 'put on the spot' or 'judged' or 'have to explain ourselves'. It's a forum, and most of the people on here are decent folk, at least until the local gun slinger entered town.

Now do me a favour and go and knock another century in, and then go and knock another, then another, and then another, and when you've done it for over 30 years, and God knows how many hundreds or thousands of breaks later, you'll realise that nobody cares and finally chill.

Ok hotpants?

Now if you must chat to me again (heaven forbid) try leaving the ego at the door, and people might warm to you a little better. Until then, don't be offended if I ignore you.

Have a nice week.

[Citrus138]

Who cares if you've had 70 centuries or play golf off 6? The very fact that you felt the need to mention that is rather amusing, especially on a forum full of professional players and members who make their living from the sport.



Have a nice week.

Once again, Im well aware that there are pros on here, that there are experienced coaches on here, that there infinitely better players than me on here, that there are posters that know a he'll of a lot more than me about snooker and all things connected to the game than me on here, and so on and so on.

But if you believe that I'm giving the big 'look at me' then you are so far wrong it's frightening.

We were discussing the possibility of ANYONE being able to achieve a certain standard of proficiency at snooker/golf.
Your stand point was that anyone, of any standard, with the right coaching, and the will to succeed could (using the golf analogy) drop from a 36 handicap to single figures, if fully aided as stated above. I simply disagreed.

In light of the topics being discussed, for me to mention my playing standard, connected to the fact that by trial error got to the standard that I am, as an alternative route to being coached, was simply using my experiences to back up my argument. Whats so wrong with that.
I mean, there is even a 'high break' thread for people to advertise what standard they play to. Are they all Billy big for posting their achievements in the game regardless of ability? Of course not.

I never meant to come across as arrogant or rude. And quite how you came to that conclusion is something that I can't quite get my head around.

Not sure why you have a problem with me tbh. Who knows?

[firefrets]

Once again, Im well aware that there are pros on here, that there are experienced coaches on here, that there infinitely better players than me on here, that there are posters that know a he'll of a lot more than me about snooker and all things connected to the game than me on here, and so on and so on.

But if you believe that I'm giving the big 'look at me' then you are so far wrong it's frightening.

We were discussing the possibility of ANYONE being able to achieve a certain standard of proficiency at snooker/golf.
Your stand point was that anyone, of any standard, with the right coaching, and the will to succeed could (using the golf analogy) drop from a 36 handicap to single figures, if fully aided as stated above. I simply disagreed.

In light of the topics being discussed, for me to mention my playing standard, connected to the fact that by trial error got to the standard that I am, as an alternative route to being coached, was simply using my experiences to back up my argument. Whats so wrong with that.
I mean, there is even a 'high break' thread for people to advertise what standard they play to. Are they all Billy big for posting their achievements in the game regardless of ability? Of course not.

I never meant to come across as arrogant or rude. And quite how you came to that conclusion is something that I can't quite get my head around.

Not sure why you have a problem with me tbh. Who knows?

Look Citrus, I don't have a problem with you. I just think you need to consider things more before reacting.

You've come out with some fairly strange accusations, from accusing me of being patronising, to talking absolute rubbish, to belittling people, etc etc, and I could go on. You've also been pretty smarmy, with certain comments such as 'just because I'm not hanging on your every word' or 'fawning all over you' which are rather unfairly suggestive.

When I explain something, I explain it so 'eveybody' can undestand it, and it isn't patronising, but just being respectful to those who don't quite 'get it'.

It's taken for granted that those who can play won't need to know it, but you expect them to move on and find a thread that's more up there street.

I'd like to put this to bed to be honest as it's spoiling my enjoyment of the forum, so I'll try once more, and this will be the last time.

You wrote:

Just a question for the coaches on here.

Before you begin actually coaching, do you ask your student 'how good do you realistically want to be?'or 'to what standard do you want play realistically?

To me, I'm not entirely sure how much benefit the student/coach gets out of a session/sessions if neither know to what target they are aiming.

I wrote:

I can't speak for full time professional coaches, as I'm certainly not a full time professional coach, but I would answer no to your question.

How good you aspire to be is down to how much effort you put in, in practising what has been suggested to you. No coach or player can turn you into a better player or offer guarantees towards how good you will become.

All they can do is put you on the right path, and guide you. The effort must come from your own enthusiasm and dedication to succeed.
I see things immidiately when I watch someone play, regardless of who they are. Knowing the difference between a variation upon a theme, and a real bad habit is important. You don't always have a blank canvas to work with, and sometimes (or in my case most times lol) the players you help can be better players than yourself. Half the time it's just a confidence problem, or they might be struggling to get into the zone, and need a bit of inspiration. Everyone has a person that makes them feel good about their game. I used to have a captain called John when I was a kid, that used to fill me with confidence and make me believe I was the greatest player on the planet.

Despite me writing that in my very first reply, you've gone off on this tangent that coaches think they can coach anyone to any standard, and as you can read from the replies in this thread, it is absolutely untrue that anyone has said that.

You need to read what is wrote mate.

ALSO: Just because someone is absolutely rubbish at something, does not mean that they can't become fantastic at it.

Providing your health is good, and your mental capacity is sufficient that you can learn, and your physical strength is such that you can fulfill the requirements of the sport, then you can go on to become a master at it, regardless.

This thing that a crap golfer can't get better is absolute baloney. He might not get as good as others, because those others have their own abilities, but he can still get very good at it.

I can teach feel.
I can teach psychology.
I can teach tactics.
I can teach shot selection.
I can teach safety play.
I can teach how to pot.
I can teach positional play.
I can teach cue action.
I can teach stance.
I can provide a good cue.

In other words, I can teach 'everything' someone needs to know in order to play at a top level, and so can pretty much every coach who has themselves understood the concept of each.

The question is 'how long will it take?' and my answer to that question is 'I don't know, but it will happen faster the more the student puts the effort in'.

But it WILL happen.

It might take me 20 years, but I'll turn that clueless snooker player into a century maker. I know this because I've done it .... to myself. I was once that clueless player.

Give me a brain that works, and a body that works, and I'll turn you into a great player, and I'm basing my answer on what I've learned during my life time as a snooker player.

You might not be as good as Ronnie Osullivan, but you'll knock a century in, or I'll hang up my cue.

Snooker is not that hard to get your head around. Those that can do it understand this. Those that can't, can't.

If you think snooker is hard, you should try playing the guitar. Snooker is easy in comparison.

[Citrus138]

Look Citrus, I don't have a problem with you. I just think you need to consider things more before reacting.

You've come out with some fairly strange accusations, from accusing me of being patronising, to talking absolute rubbish, to belittling people, etc etc, and I could go on. You've also been pretty smarmy, with certain comments such as 'just because I'm not hanging on your every word' or 'fawning all over you' which are rather unfairly suggestive.

When I explain something, I explain it so 'eveybody' can undestand it, and it isn't patronising, but just being respectful to those who don't quite 'get it'.

It's taken for granted that those who can play won't need to know it, but you expect them to move on and find a thread that's more up there street.

I'd like to put this to bed to be honest as it's spoiling my enjoyment of the forum, so I'll try once more, and this will be the last time.

You wrote:


I wrote:



Despite me writing that in my very first reply, you've gone off on this tangent that coaches think they can coach anyone to any standard, and as you can read from the replies in this thread, it is absolutely untrue that anyone has said that.

You need to read what is wrote mate.

ALSO: Just because someone is absolutely rubbish at something, does not mean that they can't become fantastic at it.

Providing your health is good, and your mental capacity is sufficient that you can learn, and your physical strength is such that you can fulfill the requirements of the sport, then you can go on to become a master at it, regardless.

This thing that a crap golfer can't get better is absolute baloney. He might not get as good as others, because those others have their own abilities, but he can still get very good at it.

I can teach feel.
I can teach psychology.
I can teach tactics.
I can teach shot selection.
I can teach safety play.
I can teach how to pot.
I can teach positional play.
I can teach cue action.
I can teach stance.
I can provide a good cue.

In other words, I can teach 'everything' someone needs to know in order to play at a top level, and so can pretty much every coach who has themselves understood the concept of each.

The question is 'how long will it take?' and my answer to that question is 'I don't know, but it will happen faster the more the student puts the effort in'.

But it WILL happen.

It might take me 20 years, but I'll turn that clueless snooker player into a century maker. I know this because I've done it .... to myself. I was once that clueless player.

Give me a brain that works, and a body that works, and I'll turn you into a great player, and I'm basing my answer on what I've learned during my life time as a snooker player.

You might not be as good as Ronnie Osullivan, but you'll knock a century in, or I'll hang up my cue.

Snooker is not that hard to get your head around. Those that can do it understand this. Those that can't, can't.

If you think snooker is hard, you should try playing the guitar. Snooker is easy in comparison.

We definitely got off on the wrong foot, no doubt about that.

But I whilst I agree with some of your points, I equally disagree with others. I'd like to debate this further, if you're up for it?

No hard feelings.

[firefrets]

We definitely got off on the wrong foot, no doubt about that.

But I whilst I agree with some of your points, I equally disagree with others. I'd like to debate this further, if you're up for it?

No hard feelings.

I'm always up for discussing stuff mate. I'm just not that interested in who's right and who's wrong. It's not like you bought my book and was disappointed with it. You disagree with some points I wrote on a forum. I can deal with that. I'm not the only member here though. Make use of the talents on every page. Mine are a mere drop in a very large ocean, and besides, I can hardly read the screen I'm so tired. Bed time looms.

[nrage]

If it helps at all, I agree with both of you I think you're just "talking at cross purposes" as they say.

I reckon anyone who puts sufficient well spent time and effort into something can't help but improve. A coach makes sure the time they spend is well spent and that they're not themselves practicing the wrong things or in the wrong way. Even with the best intentions you can teach yourself the wrong things and not immediately notice, especially if you're a beginner and the wrong thing hasn't made an immediate and obvious difference in the wrong direction.

That said, everyone has their limits. I used to play a lot of football (before a knee injury) and I played with guys who had all sorts of skill levels. We had one guy who was one of those people who hadn't really played a lot of sport, or done a lot of physical things as a kid, so even though he was dead keen on football, and had a strong desire to get better the going was tough and he made progress slowly. I think the reason for this was primarily a physical or rather a mental limitation on his physical ability.

The human brain does a huge amount of developing in the first few years of life, it forms many pathways, more between often used parts of the brain - like the centers that control our bodies for example. Some people develop more pathways than others and therefore have more control over their bodies. This can mean a person has less control than another, and in a sport like snooker this becomes a limitation. As the brain does not form new pathways after a certain age (I believe) .. or forms them very slowly, this means you cannot (or can only slowly) improve past a certain point.

That's how I see it in any case. So, if you want your son to be a footballer, get him kicking a ball as soon as possible, or at least doing something physical.

[tedisbill]

I'm still missing stupid balls and it's really beginning to get me down.

I've played snooker for a least 3 hours every day for the last 2 weeks, and most days since starting this thread.

I had a match tonight. Split the reds everywhere off the black, then made 17. It's a joke, an absoulte joke and I can't understand it.