cue arm&shoulder

[hsn]

A clarification.

There is so much chatter about my theory of opting for a perfect alignment without fully grasping its true nature and the advantages that I thought to write a detailed explanation.

As those of you who have gone through my initial post would know that a perfect alignment is a setup in which the cue, the cue arm shoulder and the elbow are in one line above the cue. It's not just a matter of hiding something behind the head of to look spectacular although there is an aesthetic side to it as well.





The real benefit of my proposed setup is for beginners and the players whose long range potting needs cranking up.

And also for those who want to put the cue at a certain line and forget worrying about pushing it through straight!

I must acknowledge that all of you folks are already doing a prodigious feat by making 50+ breaks whose cue arm alignment is no way near perfect; the result of years of dedication and practice.

Being a mechanical engineer I view the cue action as a coordinated set of movements.

The arm is heavier than the cue itself and if its weight is thrown off the line of the cue it can pull it in the direction at which the arm is tilted.

The point in doing the perfect alignment is to deliver the weight of the arm right behind the direction of the cue so that it’s not thrown offline.

In theory, if this setup is followed there may be very less amount of training required to push the cue through straight as compared to a cue arm setup that is not perfectly aligned.

Put in other words, the purpose of the perfect alignment is to provide such an aligned mechanism that is capable of holding the cue perfectly on the line on its own, at which it is initially held, throughout the delivery. This is achieved by taking out any and all of the forces capable of imparting offline thrust that may result from any part of the mechanism being not aligned to the whole setup.

To better understand my point imagine your arm has two hinges; one in your elbow and the other in your shoulder. You are holding the cue in your hand ready to move in a line through at the angle at which the hinge swings.

Now if both of these hinges are setup at a slightly different angle to each other what's going to happen to the line of the cue when both of these are swung simultaneously? Obviously both of the hinges would throw the cue in a different direction to the other.

Align those two together and you'll only have to stay still to hit the bull’s eye consistently.

So what's the point in struggling to learn to push, and keep training hard to keep pushing, the cue through straight with an inferior setup while we can learn it fairly quickly, and retain it relatively easily, with the perfect setup?

Then all you'll have to do is to practice just to make sure that the setup stays aligned and you're bound to surprise yourself by pulling such a long pots that the pros are going to envy!

I am aware that many players are doing very well with a flawed setup. They could do even better had they corrected their alignments.

I am also aware that only the perfect alignment and the resulting long potting skills aren’t going to make you a better player. There is a lot more to master to get on top of the game but the perfect alignment is probably the most valuable foundation stone that can be laid for long lasting benefits.

To those folks who find this setup uncomfortable; you'll get used to it in a couple of weeks’ time and it'll feel comfortable to them if they are willing to learn and work on it.

Anyone who doesn’t want to go this route has every right to do so. But please do not doubt the efficacy of this method. I couldn't make a 40 break after playing a couple years with the wrong setup. I always felt that something was technically wrong. And the moment I figured it out I started working on my alignment.

My shoulders hurt and my back cramped but I was determined enough to achieve 6/7 out of 10 accuracy in achieving a perfect alignment without a mirror in a couple of weeks’ time. It is when the best part began and I started to astonish even myself with how well I could make the long pot I could have never thought of to pull a couple of weeks earlier. In less than 6 months’ time I was able to manage my first century break. My mates used to say that they would know if I were going to make or miss the pot just by checking over my alignment! Many of them came to me asking for help to change their alignments as well. Most of them who were able to align consistently made great progress or at least made spectacular pots when their alignment was almost true.

I do not mean to say that I am able to do the perfect alignment during each and every shot I play but I try my best. While practicing before a mirror setup I can manage to often pot 9 out of 10 blues off the spot from bridging over the yellow pocket even following the cue ball into same pocket.

[hsn]

Just my opinion but I think you are chasing something that could be detrimental to your game. The various pics of pros with elbows inside/outside vertical, shoulder hidden/partially hidden illustrates this.

Far more important to find a set up for you that gets cue, bridge, head, grip on the same line no matter what it looks like. Then tons of practice!

"Far more important to find a set up for you that gets cue, bridge, head, grip on the same line no matter what it looks like" So many things online then why not a couple more? Like the elbow and the shoulder?? Why keep them out when they can make miracles?

The ideal should be the perfect alignment which most of the pros pose every now and then.There is a substantial reason to it not every one understand.

[hsn]

This is how I stand now anyway, I'm just adjusting how much I twist as I get down.

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Hi Ted pleased to see that you haven't quit it yet. I have read many comments here that if you'll listen to they will lead you no where.

Looking at your stance it seems like you're still obsessed with the Allen Fisher one.
You are facing away from the line of the cue at an angle of 60 degrees. Let me tell you that the squarer you'll stand the more you'll have to twist and contort yourself to achieve the perfect alignment. If you'd like to feel a bit more comfortable please face away further from the cue at an angle of 45 degrees. Twist your hips but don't overdo it to the point where you are uncomfortable and out of balance.
Your right leg is good enough, I suggest you move your left foot forward a bit and keep your balance point between your feet.
Experiment with putting your right foot a bit left and then a bit right.
The way you are after it, I see no reason that you won't make it within a week.
Keep it up buddy. If you want any further assistance I'd be happy to help. A photo from directly behind your stance will be needed in that case. I can even send you my stance CAD dimensions if you are still struggling.
Keep it up buddy l wish you good luck.

[j6uk]

you can't go wrong if your gonna study those two to nick a few moves

[tedisbill]

Well it's a bit like Steve Davis and Ronnie: in-between the two.

[itsnoteasy]

You have a boxer stance any way.

[tedisbill]

This isn't a tweak, this is a complete overhaul, it will change your feet, your hips your weight balance, so your whole stance . It will change your chest contact, your shoulders, your bridge hand position in relation to everything you do now, probably your head position, of course your grip arm position,there's not much else you can change, so it's not like adding a back pause, or starting your cue action slowly, I'm not saying don't do it, just pointing out it could be risky. Of course your coach will know much more and he may just see one simple thing and it will all fall into place.

This is how I stand now anyway, I'm just adjusting how much I twist as I get down.

image.jpg

[itsnoteasy]

I used to have the attitude a couple of years ago where I was scared to change anything. I'd think that because I could make the odd 50, that if I messed about with things, I wouldn't be able to do it anymore.

As time has gone on though, I've changed my stance, changed how slowly I pull the cue back, got a more deliberate pause at the back etc. God knows how long it's actually taken before I felt "comfortable" doing the new things. It certainly doesn't help the first time you try something, and it doesn't help that week, and probably not that month. But in the end, it will help.

I've only been playing 3.5 years properly. If I look at old video, my cue action is so quick. It just looks like I'll miss any second. So are you saying at the time I should have just said "well that's how I bring the cue back, so that's how it's gonna stay"?

At the end of the day, I'm not gonna forget how to pot balls just because I've tweaked something a bit.

There's a reason why all the top players play in a "similar" way. You can always pick somebody that does it slightly differently and gets results, but MOST of the top players have things is common.

This isn't a tweak, this is a complete overhaul, it will change your feet, your hips your weight balance, so your whole stance . It will change your chest contact, your shoulders, your bridge hand position in relation to everything you do now, probably your head position, of course your grip arm position,there's not much else you can change, so it's not like adding a back pause, or starting your cue action slowly, I'm not saying don't do it, just pointing out it could be risky. Of course your coach will know much more and he may just see one simple thing and it will all fall into place.

[hsn]

Excellent thread this one, and since I have been experimenting with my alignment using the advice in this thread I have noticed a definite improvement in my potting accuracy. Before I read this thread my shoulder and elbow stuck out in a similar way to this picture of Joe Perry:-

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....and since following the advice of this thread my alignment has changed to something very similar to this picture of Barry Hawkins, i.e. my shoulder is just slightly sticking out, but my upper elbow is angled towards my body with the elbow directly above the cue:-

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I know this picture wasn't taken directly in front of the cue, but its the best photo I could find to illustrate my question, which is if the shoulder is slightly off line but the elbow is directly on line then is this good enough? My thinking is that when feathering and during the final delivery if the forearm is pivoting off the elbow then really all the one needs to do is to make sure that the elbow is on the line of aim? So the my question to the coaches and knowledgeable folk who contribute this forum - is my thinking correct or flawed?

Your shoulder should also be aligned because when you follow through it also comes into play. If it's not aligned your upper arm also doesn't align with the cue and the elbow. Thus when you follow through and your shoulder drops it can pull the cue offline.

[guernseygooner]

I'm not saying you shouldn't change things if they are drastically wrong and will eventually improve your game.

I'm on about you trying to contort your body into a shape where you look aesthetically correct in the stance, but might mess up any chance of cueing straight. You only have to look at pro pics to see this. ROS, Hendry, Higgins elbow in. Perry, Parrott, Reardon elbow out. Perry's shoulder visible etc etc. Don't you think if it was that imperative to straight cueing that all these players would have looked into it?

Snooker is a simple game of getting the cue on line, pulling it back straight and pushing it through straight. The 'secret' is working on a pre shot routine and walk in that enables this consistently. Whatever you look like to achieve this will be unique to you.

You say you have only been playing 3.5 years. Well I have been playing a lot longer to a pretty high standard and in the past have been sucked in to filling my head with all sorts of thoughts of what I 'should' be doing. And do you know when my best period of play was? When I was practicing more!

[tedisbill]

I used to have the attitude a couple of years ago where I was scared to change anything. I'd think that because I could make the odd 50, that if I messed about with things, I wouldn't be able to do it anymore.

As time has gone on though, I've changed my stance, changed how slowly I pull the cue back, got a more deliberate pause at the back etc. God knows how long it's actually taken before I felt "comfortable" doing the new things. It certainly doesn't help the first time you try something, and it doesn't help that week, and probably not that month. But in the end, it will help.

I've only been playing 3.5 years properly. If I look at old video, my cue action is so quick. It just looks like I'll miss any second. So are you saying at the time I should have just said "well that's how I bring the cue back, so that's how it's gonna stay"?

At the end of the day, I'm not gonna forget how to pot balls just because I've tweaked something a bit.

There's a reason why all the top players play in a "similar" way. You can always pick somebody that does it slightly differently and gets results, but MOST of the top players have things is common.

[guernseygooner]

I just think this learn by numbers can't be applied to snooker. If it was that simple then we would all look identical in the stance as this is 'correct'

[itsnoteasy]

Just my opinion but I think you are chasing something that could be detrimental to your game. The various pics of pros with elbows inside/outside vertical, shoulder hidden/partially hidden illustrates this.

Far more important to find a set up for you that gets cue, bridge, head, grip on the same line no matter what it looks like. Then tons of practice!

Totally agree GG , that's why near the start of this thread I ask Ted what he was after with all this, and to be careful what he wished for.
Ted please don't over analyse your game, I do this all the time and it just mucks it up, every single time, nothing good has come out of me fretting over this should be a millimetre over here, or that should be an inch over there, as all I end up doing is thinking about that instead of playing. I have been told not to do it and I know I shouldn't but I can't ,I never used to , and all it's done is held me back, so before you head down this path stop and think, do you need a whole new set up, or do you just have to be more consistent with the one you have?

[j6uk]

Just my opinion but I think you are chasing something that could be detrimental to your game. The various pics of pros with elbows inside/outside vertical, shoulder hidden/partially hidden illustrates this.

Far more important to find a set up for you that gets cue, bridge, head, grip on the same line no matter what it looks like. Then tons of practice!

yep, and if your new coach is constantly fiddling with your setup and taking your money then look for someone else.

[tedisbill]

Ted I think these two have a perfect set up, they are perfectly online, they just sight under one eye. Look at Trump if you draw a line straight up the centre of the cue ball perfectly vertical I bet it runs right through head shoulder and arm, even his grip hand that you can just see, it's just that he sights with his right eye.
P.s. Look how far over their bum and hips are.

With Trump, don't look at the centre of the cue ball, look at the line of his cue (I.e. The line of the shot) which is where I've drawn my yellow line.

With everybody that sights with one eye, this is what happens. Although trumps head shoulder and bridge arm all look perfectly in-line, he is in fact exactly like me, where because the actual cue is NOT perfectly central to his head (it's under one eye), it won't line up perfectly with the top of his elbow.