cue arm&shoulder

[Terry Davidson]

I think that accelerometer thingy Nic has(did you get one Terry) could be just what a lot of people need, me included , would get you slowly accelerating and continuing right through the cue ball. I don't feel I quit on the shot but I do feel I start off a bit quick which causes it's own problems.

Yes I have one and have used it with Les Edwards. Since the slope of the line shows the speed of the backswing and delivery it does help to analyse the technique and also the newest version of the software allows you to compare your speed and length with some of the best pros. I think it helped Les realize his backswing was too short and too fast and also his delivery was too abrupt plus he wasn't accelerating through the cue.

Les has said when he comes for another session he would like to do another analysis using the device to see if there's been any improvement.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

I don't think the actual gadget serves much purpose really. You can see easily when someone is too quick with their cue action.

I mean, you just said yourself that you start off too quick. All the gadget would do is confirm that. It's up to you to consciously slow everything down and get some more control.

I feel Alabadi has gone too far the other way. He looks so mechanical and "forced", you lose any natural feel on the shot.

Ted I said the exact same thing , and I mean those exact words, when the original thread was put up about it. Nic then put up a video of changing someone's cueing using it and it was very noticeable the difference in the timing of the cue action, on the backswing , the pause ,and the forward swing.

[Cmbrstefan]

I think that accelerometer thingy Nic has(did you get one Terry) could be just what a lot of people need, me included , would get you slowly accelerating and continuing right through the cue ball. I don't feel I quit on the shot but I do feel I start off a bit quick which causes it's own problems.

I also wanted to include a slow start in to my cueing action, but the more i do it the more i focus on the action and bang i miss the pot. not every one is perfect and not every one needs the same.
What I do and mainly do is to gather All info, everything from good to bad, Analyze it and see what i could fit in to make potting and cueing more consistent.
i.e. i was advised to also wrap the 3 last fingers on the Grip hand tight on the cue ( to help me get the delivery more straight.) it did not fit me on the back swing, but now i realize that i don't open my hand as much as before. And in a result giving me a straighter delivery.

It is up to you how you are using the advises, only you will know, do what feels good for you. change bit by bit to get used to it not all at once.

[alabadi]

I think it can be hard coming on here and listening to all the views - seeing what might or may not help you as their are differing views - you are right to apply your knowledge to a player individually.

You are right byrom, it can be confusing when you have people with different views, i think the majority think i shouldn't change my setup and maybe they are right, however when one is struggling with his game he has to try different things to see if one or many changes can make improvements.

Terry might be right in that its not my alignment that is the issue, however i need to experiment to find out if it is or not. i will be taking Terry up on his offer to analyse and dissect a video of me playing straight blue from different angles to see if there are any underlying problems i am not aware of

[tedisbill]

I think that accelerometer thingy Nic has(did you get one Terry) could be just what a lot of people need, me included , would get you slowly accelerating and continuing right through the cue ball. I don't feel I quit on the shot but I do feel I start off a bit quick which causes it's own problems.

I don't think the actual gadget serves much purpose really. You can see easily when someone is too quick with their cue action.

I mean, you just said yourself that you start off too quick. All the gadget would do is confirm that. It's up to you to consciously slow everything down and get some more control.

I feel Alabadi has gone too far the other way. He looks so mechanical and "forced", you lose any natural feel on the shot.

[itsnoteasy]

I think that accelerometer thingy Nic has(did you get one Terry) could be just what a lot of people need, me included , would get you slowly accelerating and continuing right through the cue ball. I don't feel I quit on the shot but I do feel I start off a bit quick which causes it's own problems.

[Byrom]

i have not seen alibadi play so cant comment and was really meaning in general terms - If you set off trying to get perfect or good alignment and encourage you students into the right shape on the shot then it can help - lot more to playing snooker as you mention and we are all different - Joe Swail for example is a pretty straight cueist - but his elbow is somewhere else altogether.

But if you build a house using straight and strong foundations from the off - the walls have less chance of falling down or being un-even later on and that is why this perfect alignment makes a bit of sense. Like a lot of players I never started off with any coaching - so it takes longer to iron out the bad habits - still trying now infact and I don't think a player ever stops learning this game.

I think it can be hard coming on here and listening to all the views - seeing what might or may not help you as their are differing views - you are right to apply your knowledge to a player individually - sorry if you think I was questioning this - I was not and did not mean it to sound like that.

End of the day talking about technical issues is hard on a forum because one size does not fit all - and much better done in person with a coach - That said I bet that thing -computer programme you use is useful in this regard too. you should put up a few examples - that might help get you a few on-line pupils but you probably have these already.

For me personally I think this perfect alignment hs and coach Gavin talk about is an area of my game I might tinker with for a few months see if I cant improve a bit myself I don't see any harm in trying - mind you I said that about the sighting thing and took me weeks to get that nonsense out of my head so I may well be wrong here too?

[Terry Davidson]

Right read most of this thread and I have changed my mind on this and here is why.

The mechanics of what he says is probably correct if you next watch your team mates match and stand directly in line with a player the ball he is going for and the pocket you can see a players alignment and you can tell before he strikes if he will pot it or if he is cueing across it - some players do align incorrectly at the back but as he said players even pro's do learn to push though correctly for them doing it in varying ways and perhaps whilst there are important things to work on in snooker I think alignment is one of those areas we should all work on and in our own way we all do already including me and you Terry.

You work on potting long blues - you do it your way and align your way - have you tried another way?

Basically - if not why not? working on getting the alignment and stance correct from the off in coaching is really a must before you move on to other areas all coaches already do it - and if this way helps a player to push the cue through straighter and more consistently than he did before what wrong with that? If it don't work nothing ventured nothing gained.

There are other areas to work on in snooker but if getting this right makes you improve your results and your game what is wrong with that? - this is why things like sight right was invented -

I work on finding the line on the baulk line - maybe a coaching lesson off this hsn getting me into the right shape on the shot - if I am not already there - might help me too. I am certainly going to give it a go first before I decide one way or the other if it works for me or not - will let ya know. Good thread with new ideas - love this forum for that.

Just so you know, alignment is one of the first things I check with any student. I always start a session with just having them shoot the spots while I stand at the head of the table and I check their elbow, head, eyes, shoulder and then come around and check their stance. If I see any misalignment then the first thing I do is work on that and believe me it does help some students who had a really poor alignment.

If you have a student that can shoot the spots fairly well for 2 lengths of the table and then I move them up to 4 lengths of the table and then after that to check their grip pressure I have them try the same exercise with the 360 training cue which will tell me if they are tightening the grip too early, especially with 4 lengths.

However I didn't think alibadi was out of alignment much at all in his first photo, so why change that? After watching his video doing the line-up I figure his biggest problem is his timing and failure to accelerate through the cueball which is probably more important than having precise alignment. Of course it helps if the elbow is above the cue as that lessens the need for coordination to get the delivery straight, but he was only around 1" inside the cue which in my humble opinion is not a problem at all.

In the 90's when Hendry was king and winning everything his elbow was a bit inside the cue and he would raise it as he delivered the cue and that movement required precise coordination. I believe degrading hand/eye coordination as he got a little older started to cost him, especially in the long pot area but he was still able to run that beautiful 147 just before he retired.

So my thought are it's better to have the elbow above the cue right from the start so I guess I would agree with you. When I came back to snooker in 2005 my elbow was hanging out about 3" which I thought was way too much and I had to do some hard work to get it aligned as it used to be in the 80's when it hung in slightly, in fact about the same as alabadi started this exercise with.

Terry

[Byrom]

Right read most of this thread and I have changed my mind on this and here is why.

The mechanics of what he says is probably correct if you next watch your team mates match and stand directly in line with a player the ball he is going for and the pocket you can see a players alignment and you can tell before he strikes if he will pot it or if he is cueing across it - some players do align incorrectly at the back but as he said players even pro's do learn to push though correctly for them doing it in varying ways and perhaps whilst there are important things to work on in snooker I think alignment is one of those areas we should all work on and in our own way we all do already including me and you Terry.

You work on potting long blues - you do it your way and align your way - have you tried another way?

Basically - if not why not? working on getting the alignment and stance correct from the off in coaching is really a must before you move on to other areas all coaches already do it - and if this way helps a player to push the cue through straighter and more consistently than he did before what wrong with that? If it don't work nothing ventured nothing gained.

There are other areas to work on in snooker but if getting this right makes you improve your results and your game what is wrong with that? - this is why things like sight right was invented -

I work on finding the line on the baulk line - maybe a coaching lesson off this hsn getting me into the right shape on the shot - if I am not already there - might help me too. I am certainly going to give it a go first before I decide one way or the other if it works for me or not - will let ya know. Good thread with new ideas - love this forum for that.

[hotpot]

Have to agree with others , there is nothing at all wrong with your set up , you may end up doing more harm than good by putting it under the microscope , id be focussed on other things like , pre shot routine , concentration , smooth delivery , shot selection etc .

[Catch 22]

Was it not alabadi that posted a video of him playing the white up and down the spots twice ,finding a gap between two balls frozen on the top cushion with only a couple of mm gap ?
If it was him then I wouldn't change a thing lol.

[Terry Davidson]

I see. Do you know who helped him achieve that alignment? By the way it was me. He was saying that he managed to achieve this alignment by moving his shoulder out from his natural position and that he was not feeling natural and comfortable as well. What I said was to move (move meant to adjust and not to move them miles) his feet in such a way that the same alignment is achieved naturally, without having to say move his shoulder in or out only to end up missing the pot as the arm returns to its NATURAL position during the delivery.

I want to learn something from expert people like yourself but I am surprised to see that you often misunderstand what you should know better than us.

You are encouraging alabadi to change something that doesn't really need changing at all as the reason for his lack of improvement (in my opinion) has nothing to do with his alignment. His first picture (post #240) shows his elbow hanging in slightly towards his back (try straightening the line out and you'll see the elbow is less than an inch inside the vertical) and that exact same alignment was used by both John Higgins and Stephen Hendry when in their primes. Not that I advocate copying any particular pro, but with that alignment they encountered no problems playing very well.

Also, alabadi has stated he has a bad knee and telling him to change things and then introducing discomfort is definitely not the way to go. I know you said he should get rid of the discomfort but my argument is that there was nothing to 'improve' in the first place, so why advise him to twist himself less or more when he was set up just fine. That first alignment is likely what he developed naturally and without discomfort, which is the prime consideration with the set-up.

I'm afraid I agree with both golferson and (god help me) j6uk that this 'perfect alignment' thing you are pushing very heavily is (to quote the Bard) 'much ado about NOTHING'. There really are much more important things to the set-up and technique than alignment and that is where alabadi needs to work on.

Terry

[alabadi]

You've mentioned issue with your leg due to the stretch. What you have to do is to find a stance that is balanced and feels comfortable to you AND in which your shoulder automatically aligns with the cue as soon as you get down on the shot.

Thanks hsn for your reply, to be honest i haven't made any drastic movements its very minimal, all i have done is allow the cue to align more across my chest just over the inside of my nipple, i think its due to the change of stance (pulling my left leg back a bit) which has meant the change.

with regards to my knee the pain is not caused by the stance but from injuries i sustained while i played football extensively in my youth, i have had 3 ops on my knees so i have to be careful with them because any access stress causes discomfort.

i will have to find somewhere where it feels comfortable and not forced, however with the change it might take a while for it to be comfortable

[hsn]

yes hsn your advise is appreciated, however just to straighten things out i didn't move my shoulder i moved the left leg back a few inches and the cue slightly left of my chin too which pushed my elbow to the right a bit.
its still not perfect and i have found i am reverting back to my older setup on shots sometimes , it feels awkward at the moment so i'm gussing that's why. however i will try and persevere with it to see if it sticks.

although aligning my shoulder with the cue will help, i have other issues which have been mentioned too. i'm hoping this change will eventually make things better overall, but i'm sure its going to make things a lot worse before it gets better as i'm finding out

Thanks for the clarification alabadi. I was just worried about your moving the cue to the left of your chin.

There are two answers to your post. First is short and to the point and the second is the elaboration.

The short answer is: Yes aligning your shoulder will definitely help. As suggested in my earlier posts, you'll have to make your stance feel more comfortable, balanced and conducive to the perfect alignment. And finally you'll have to put a mental CLAMP on the alignment when playing a shot in order to guard against it reverting back to where it used to be .

The long answer goes like this: My point is that you should not deliberately move anything to get it aligned except the tip of your elbow (but that's rather swinging it a little left or right not moving). The reason to this is that when you play a shot any unnaturally made alignment falls apart and this is a clear sign of the reason that you've started to miss the shots.

Consider your cue arm made of rubber which is bound to return to its natural position when any constraint applied is withdrawn. So the best practice would be to align it without having to put a constraint to it. And when it has aligned ITSELF you have to intentionally CLAMP it right there in place which will guard against its reverting back to your old setup.

You've mentioned issue with your leg due to the stretch. What you have to do is to find a stance that is balanced and feels comfortable to you AND in which your shoulder automatically aligns with the cue as soon as you get down on the shot.

After you've mastered the perfect alignment technique you'll have to work on the rhythm of the cue, the timing, the accelerated stroke and more finer aspects of the game.

I hope it clarifies most of the things. And I wish you best of luck.

[alabadi]

I see. Do you know who helped him achieve that alignment? By the way it was me. He was saying that he managed to achieve this alignment by moving his shoulder out from his natural position and that he was not feeling natural and comfortable as well. What I said was to move (move meant to adjust and not to move them miles) his feet in such a way that the same alignment is achieved naturally, without having to say move his shoulder in or out only to end up missing the pot as the arm returns to its NATURAL position during the delivery.

I want to learn something from expert people like yourself but I am surprised to see that you often misunderstand what you should know better than us.

yes hsn your advise is appreciated, however just to straighten things out i didn't move my shoulder i moved the left leg back a few inches and the cue slightly left of my chin too which pushed my elbow to the right a bit.
its still not perfect and i have found i am reverting back to my older setup on shots sometimes , it feels awkward at the moment so i'm gussing that's why. however i will try and persevere with it to see if it sticks.

although aligning my shoulder with the cue will help, i have other issues which have been mentioned too. i'm hoping this change will eventually make things better overall, but i'm sure its going to make things a lot worse before it gets better as i'm finding out