cue arm position and cue action

[vucko117]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b44vVNva7qM

I have noticed that I was gripping the cue to far and because of that I wasn't too confident about my play. I took some footage of my cue action,what do you think I am doing correct or wrong? Any input is much appreciated. I will soon put another video which is virtually the same as this one but with maybe one or the different angles.

If you notice anything good or bad please tell me,as I am currently desperate to improve my potting.. Thanks

[firefrets]

This is only my opinion, but your follow through seems to be causing your cue hand to move forward from what I consider to be a 'natural pendulum position' which in turn is causing your elbow to drop and your head to raise. [0:40, 0:50]

Your back swing seems to come too far back also [1:00] but it could be the camera angle. If it extends further than the hip then the front of the cue tends to dip as the back swing raises.

My guess is that your bridge is too far away from the white ball. Please check the distance from the point where your thumb touches your finger, and the white ball.

I like to see this no more than 8 inches. Even closer if you have to put power into a shot for maximum spin, despite some who say power comes from a huge swing. It doesn't.

Your cue can't be against your chest, or your follow through would hit your chest with your cue hand. Where it hits the chest is maximum follow through. At this point you should have the tip of your cue 'at least' 2-3 inches past the white in order to spin the white.

Check that this is so. If it isn't, and your hand is the correct distance from the white, then your cue might be too short. Holding it nearer the butt end makes the cue longer. Holding it nearer the tip makes it shorter.

For your cue to be against your chest your ankle on your straight leg ( in your case your left) needs to be along the line of the shot, or as close as possible whilst keeping balance.

So to re-cap:

Hand distance max 8 inches to white, preferably a little closer.
Follow through no more than chest. (think 8 oclock)
Back swing no more than hip. (think 4 oclock)
Straight leg alignment in line with shot to enable chest on cue.
Grip nearer to back of cue if more cue length needed. Don't change if not.
When follow through is at max, tip should be well past the white.

It is also natural to wiggle around on your stance to find a pefect balance etc. You don't do this. Don't be too mechanical. You're a person. Wiggle your ass a bit.

[vucko117]

Thanks for nice analysis. I will go to the club a bit later and will try to apply all your advices. We'll see how it goes Thanks again.

You are right that my backswing is too long,sometimes I notice that I am losing control because I am pulling the cue back too far. I have just recently altered my stance and it everything went wrong from that point. And yes,my two major concerns is head raising and too much elbow dropping. So thanks again for nice advices

[vucko117]

this is another link with perhaps a couple of more angles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZpQ623TVGo

[firefrets]

Another thing I notice is that you are very quick into your stance, but obviously I can't see what is happening on the table.

Remember that your feet aren't the most important thing. The most important thing is getting your hand position at the right distance. The feet then 'compliment' that position by providing balance, and the result brings the chest in for added stability.

You may or may not be going into a perfect distance, but it is unnatural not to shuffle the feet from time to time to adjust, even for comfort.

I still think you are too far away though. Check that first mate.

[vucko117]

Thanks once again for your advices. I am right now at the club and. I hva to agree with you that the most important thing is bridge distance from the cue ball. I am not used to adjusting once you are down on the shot. If I dont feel comfortable i simply stand up and then try to get into comfortable position without moving my feet once Idown on tnhe shot.Also, now it feels to me that my bridge is to close,but. I am potting better,and sighting has improved. So now I will concentrat on getting the bridge hand on the correct distance and hopefully everything else will be OK. And I am staying down until the object ball drop or hit the cushion.

[firefrets]

Thanks once again for your advices. I am right now at the club and. I hva to agree with you that the most important thing is bridge distance from the cue ball. I am not used to adjusting once you are down on the shot. If I dont feel comfortable i simply stand up and then try to get into comfortable position without moving my feet once Idown on tnhe shot.Also, now it feels to me that my bridge is to close,but. I am potting better,and sighting has improved. So now I will concentrat on getting the bridge hand on the correct distance and hopefully everything else will be OK. And I am staying down until the object ball drop or hit the cushion.

Sometimes when you're doing things wrong, things feel right. To make important changes, we have to trust ourselves that what feels 'different' when we adjust will feel normal over time.

I can't see for sure from the video. All I can do is offer you a few things to check yourself.

Again regarding your stance, it is ok to adjust once down. It's the only way you will find perfection. You can't do it while you are standing after all. If your chest doesn't stop your hand from moving forward too much you are not in a stable stance. That's the first thing I could see.

Experiment.

[Terry Davidson]

Vucko:

I took a look at your first video.

I see firefrets has offered an analysis, however some of his points do go against what is recommended by myself and most coaches.

The first point I noticed is your upper body is too high from the cushion on a hand-on-the-table shot. The cue should be no more that one chalk height above the cushion. To get this spread your stance a little by moving just the right foot out about 10cm for so, but keep the left foot on the line of aim of the cue.

Secondly, you do have some minor head movement during the backswing and also just as you start to accelerate the cue from the rear pause. This usually indicates the backswing and acceleration is too quick, which introduces body movement. This one is very hard to modify, however you are close as your backswing is long enough that you don't need to accelerate too rapidly. SLOW DOWN YOUR BACKSWING!

Now here is where firefrets and I differ:

Backswing length should only be as long as what a player can positively control. Your backswing is about twice as fast as it should be however in my opinion the length is fine but only if you slow it down and also keep it absolutely straight. I believe the reason you are not controlling the backswing correctly is the speed of it rather than the length.

Myself and every other coach I know (except firefrets) recommend 9in (22.5cm) to 12in (30cm) for the length of cue between the 'V' of the bridge and the tip of the cue when nearly against the cueball (normally called the 'address' position). This normally relates to either arm length or height, so a person who is short (maybe 5ft6in) should have 9-10in and a person who is over 6ft may have 11-12in. However, there is a trade-off in this, as more cue over the bridge gives better sighting for long pots but a shorter length gives more control for the shorter pots.

Length of backswing and dropping the elbow at both the end of the backswing and at the end of delivery is an argument that has gone on for a lot of years. Most American pool coaches recommend the 'pendulum' stroke and also say it's OK to have the butt of the cue rise up to 10 degrees at the end of the backswing. However, for the greater accuracy required in snooker the philosophy is the cue should remain on the same plane throughout the backswing and delivery. If your backswing is greater than about 6in (15cm), and it looks like it, then the elbow MUST drop about 1in to maintain the cue on plane and on the other side near the end of delivery the elbow should drop about 2in on a higher power shot where the follow-through is longer.

In turn, dropping the elbow is no good for a player who cannot control the cue when shoulder socket movement is brought into the picture by dropping the elbow. If you can get rid of all the upper body movement during the backswing and (in your case) the delivery then you should be able to keep any lateral movement out of the cue during the delivery.

I also disagree with firefrets concerning body movement and aiming changes while the player is down on the shot. ALL aiming should be done while the player is standing behind the shot and by placing the right foot (left foot in your case) properly on the line of aim and also (very important) DROPPING THE HEAD STRAIGHT DOWN ON THE LINE OF AIM. Once your bridge hand hits the table there should be no body movement. The reason is you will always get the best perspective on the correct line of aim when you are standing up over the shot and if you can develop a method (dropping head straight down) where you keep this line then you will be on the correct line of aim as long as you get to a point where you can place your bridge hand on the table correctly while your eyes are on the object ball which they should be as you get down into the shot.

I should note here that ALL the best pros (with the exception of Graham Dott who is a little shorter than most) have a very long backswing with an elbow drop at the end of it. This includes Higgins, O'Sullivan, Selby, Hendry, Murphy, Maguire and many more. Not one of them uses a short backswing. Take a good look at O'Sullivan, Higgins and Selby and you will see for most shots they pull the cue back to where the ferrule is touching the 'V' of their bridge. I should say however, that I myself cannot control the cue properly doing this and my normal backswing is a little less except on power shots where I do draw the cue back all the way, around 10in (30cm).

I do have one point of discussion for firefrets if he would care to elaborate. It makes good sense to me that the backswing length should be proportional to the power required as this will give the player more swing length to accelerate the cue more while maintaining the smoothness required (no body movement introduced from quicker acceleration). The backswing length proportional to power is a theory advocated by Terry Griffiths, Nic Barrow, Del Hill and almost every other coach I can think of.

That said, I recognize a shorter backswing promotes better accuracy but it will lessen a player's options or at least make him less accurate on any power shots.

Terry

[firefrets]

Vucko:

I took a look at your first video.

I see firefrets has offered an analysis, however some of his points do go against what is recommended by myself and most coaches.

The first point I noticed is your upper body is too high from the cushion on a hand-on-the-table shot. The cue should be no more that one chalk height above the cushion. To get this spread your stance a little by moving just the right foot out about 10cm for so, but keep the left foot on the line of aim of the cue.

Secondly, you do have some minor head movement during the backswing and also just as you start to accelerate the cue from the rear pause. This usually indicates the backswing and acceleration is too quick, which introduces body movement. This one is very hard to modify, however you are close as your backswing is long enough that you don't need to accelerate too rapidly. SLOW DOWN YOUR BACKSWING!

Now here is where firefrets and I differ:

Backswing length should only be as long as what a player can positively control. Your backswing is about twice as fast as it should be however in my opinion the length is fine but only if you slow it down and also keep it absolutely straight. I believe the reason you are not controlling the backswing correctly is the speed of it rather than the length.

Myself and every other coach I know (except firefrets) recommend 9in (22.5cm) to 12in (30cm) for the length of cue between the 'V' of the bridge and the tip of the cue when nearly against the cueball (normally called the 'address' position). This normally relates to either arm length or height, so a person who is short (maybe 5ft6in) should have 9-10in and a person who is over 6ft may have 11-12in. However, there is a trade-off in this, as more cue over the bridge gives better sighting for long pots but a shorter length gives more control for the shorter pots.

Length of backswing and dropping the elbow at both the end of the backswing and at the end of delivery is an argument that has gone on for a lot of years. Most American pool coaches recommend the 'pendulum' stroke and also say it's OK to have the butt of the cue rise up to 10 degrees at the end of the backswing. However, for the greater accuracy required in snooker the philosophy is the cue should remain on the same plane throughout the backswing and delivery. If your backswing is greater than about 6in (15cm), and it looks like it, then the elbow MUST drop about 1in to maintain the cue on plane and on the other side near the end of delivery the elbow should drop about 2in on a higher power shot where the follow-through is longer.

In turn, dropping the elbow is no good for a player who cannot control the cue when shoulder socket movement is brought into the picture by dropping the elbow. If you can get rid of all the upper body movement during the backswing and (in your case) the delivery then you should be able to keep any lateral movement out of the cue during the delivery.

I also disagree with firefrets concerning body movement and aiming changes while the player is down on the shot. ALL aiming should be done while the player is standing behind the shot and by placing the right foot (left foot in your case) properly on the line of aim and also (very important) DROPPING THE HEAD STRAIGHT DOWN ON THE LINE OF AIM. Once your bridge hand hits the table there should be no body movement. The reason is you will always get the best perspective on the correct line of aim when you are standing up over the shot and if you can develop a method (dropping head straight down) where you keep this line then you will be on the correct line of aim as long as you get to a point where you can place your bridge hand on the table correctly while your eyes are on the object ball which they should be as you get down into the shot.

I should note here that ALL the best pros (with the exception of Graham Dott who is a little shorter than most) have a very long backswing with an elbow drop at the end of it. This includes Higgins, O'Sullivan, Selby, Hendry, Murphy, Maguire and many more. Not one of them uses a short backswing. Take a good look at O'Sullivan, Higgins and Selby and you will see for most shots they pull the cue back to where the ferrule is touching the 'V' of their bridge. I should say however, that I myself cannot control the cue properly doing this and my normal backswing is a little less except on power shots where I do draw the cue back all the way, around 10in (30cm).

I do have one point of discussion for firefrets if he would care to elaborate. It makes good sense to me that the backswing length should be proportional to the power required as this will give the player more swing length to accelerate the cue more while maintaining the smoothness required (no body movement introduced from quicker acceleration). The backswing length proportional to power is a theory advocated by Terry Griffiths, Nic Barrow, Del Hill and almost every other coach I can think of.

That said, I recognize a shorter backswing promotes better accuracy but it will lessen a player's options or at least make him less accurate on any power shots.

Terry

You know Terry, you make a point of trying to discredit my advice to the lad, in order to give your own opinion weight, which is fine with me, but slightly unprofessional, but then again, we both know that you actually never played the game, despite your dickiebow avatar, but just took a lil ole lesson from Terry in order to start making a few quid.

You also feel the need to justify your advice by quoting other coaches, not once, but many times, as though you are trying to ward off any challenge. Are you a little insecure?

Noone on the pro circuit other than Terry has heard of you, which is no surprise, because you weren't there mate, neither here, nor in Canada.


It must be awful being the king Bee, and then have some punk like me 'dare' to help anyone on your territory, because on this forum, you're used to being 'the coach'.

I offer the guy my opinion. I don't charge for it, and don't ask for anything in return, but I know if he gives it a whirl, it will help him. I do this by looking at what I see. I don't base it on what other coaches say.

Already he states he is potting better, and his sighting has improved, so I can't have hurt his game, any more than I have apparently hurt 'your ego'.

I also start my reply to him with a big

This is just my opinion

but still you feel the need to belittle my help, even though the lad states, that already, he's playing better.

Seriously Terry, grow up mate. You come across like a little kid who's had his ball stolen.

I read some of your advice, and do you know what? It's the same advice that has been churned around the circuit for decades, but the best players don't do that matey. You might find that hard to believe, but snooker has changed.

I'll give you 'your forum. back, as today has been so unenjoyable it's a wonder I even contemplate returning.

Congratulations. Just know lads are having a little chuckle at your victory.

[jrc750]

....Noone on the pro circuit other than Terry has heard of you, which is no surprise, because you weren't there mate, neither here, nor in Canada.....

Thats a bit harsh mate (even tho you won't be able to respond) Terry played over here a long long time ago, thats never been a secret that i know of.......current pros won't have heard of him because they probably weren't even born.

[magicman]

Handbags at dawn!

[Terry Davidson]

WOW!!! I realize firefrets won't be able to see this response but perhaps his son (slippy shaft) can tell him about it.

First of all, I thought I was being diplomatic and offering the student (vucko) a different opinion however I can see firefrets took it as a personal attack on his coaching abilities.

Secondly, my 'dickiebow' picture is taken from a team picture during the Can-Am Snooker Challenge in Las Vegas where a Canadian 4-man team plays a US team during the national ACS (American Cue Sports) tournament every June.

The pros that I've played in the late 80's are mostly gone now, but a lot of them were very good players and some of them still are on the circuit but after 25 years most of them won't remember the Canuk who competed with them on the pro-am circuit of the day. I have played Hendry in a tournament but it was when he was Scottish Amateur Champion, just before he turned pro as he was only 15 at the time (and beat me handily I hasten to mention). I've also played Willie Thorne, John Virgo, Cliff Thorburn, Dennis Taylor, Dave Harold, David Roe and a few others who still compete professionally.

I was Leicestershire County Champion in 1986, beating the likes of Stefan Mazrocis (sp?) in the semis and was ranked somewhere around #30 in the top 100 amateurs in SnookerScene.

I was (long ago) a certified B&SCC coach under the Jack Karnham scheme and in the past few years have been certified as a Senior Coach by Terry Griffiths Matchroom, certified as a Coach and Master Coach under the IBSF scheme, certified as a Master Coach under Nic Barrow's SnookerGym scheme and am also a certified Examiner under the IBSF scheme and am allowed to certify Master Coaches worldwide. I don't think it's me that has the ego problem.

I'm also a Class 'C' referee and a tournament player still here in Canada even at the age of 66 (almost anyway). I still manage to win a match every now and then but have to admit I'm nowhere near as good as Bob Chaperone or Alain Robidoux but my ego is still intact I think.

The reason I felt I had to offer vucko a second opinion to firefret's advice was because his advice went against not only what I've learned as a coach but also how I play and how I teach my students and I wanted to give vucko a second opinion, which is what I thought a forum was all about.

So firefrets, run me down all you want, my ego can take it.

Terry

[vucko117]

So, I want to thank both Terry and firefrets.

Terry, I am quite tall 193cm and I find it really difficult to go even lower with my stance,but I have tried it and I could see the benefit,but currently it feels a little uncomfortable..

About the speed of the backswing,I have tried to slow it down,and it just didn't work for me. If I concentrate I can keep my upper boddy still all the time even with this backswing speed. And if I can say ,this seems to be the ideal speed for me,as I am cueing straighter than ever,and if I slow down I tend to break my wrist inwards.

[vucko117]

Oh,and I think that it is just camera angle,I have checked and my cue is only a chalk above the cushion,I have worked on that with Nic,on my first visit.

[Terry Davidson]

vucko:

The absolute most important thing in a snooker technique is COMFORT!!!

So if something I advise gives you discomfort then don't do it.

But just as a note, the tall players like Davis, Robertson and Selby do get right down on the shot and also have their backs fairly straight. If you can get rid of the discomfort by spreading the stance a bit and also turning the feet out from the line of aim it may work for you, but if not then don't change it.

Terry