Problem with cueing across the cue ball

[1986jet]

I am left handed have done a lot of work over the last year on improving my cue action however I find that I am cueing across the ball, right to left on balls on the left side of the table and right to left on balls on the right side of the table. It causes me to miss shots due to the OB being thrown off to the side of the pockets.
I have looked into all sorts of things like sighting which a automatically do with my left eye although on some shots I seem to sight straight over the cue, I have also made sure the elbow is straight (it used to hang outside the line of the shot) which I did from making sure i always stand and walk down the line of the shot.
Eventually I came to the conclusion that the problem is that my shoulder is not behind my head. I have tried all sorts of things after reading advice on this and other forums for example lifting the shoulder however i find that it does not stay and place and I also dont like the idea of this because it is surely pulling the cue offline if you are doing this while down on the shot. I have also tried straighting the arm and putting weight on the elbow but found this still does not work.
Advice would be greatly appreciated.

[1986jet]

edit: left to right on the right side of the table. So with running side or in american outside english.

[nrage]

I have a similar problem, but for me it would come and go and I hadn't been able to figure out why. I think I now know why.

Last weekend I got my htc desire, set it up on a joby gorillapod with mobile phone sucker type attachment over the black pocket diagonally opposite the yellow pocket. I set up a long blue (red) and recorded myself trying to pot it. On the day I was playing particularly bad, and was consistently hitting this shot 5-10cm to the left of the pocket.

Watching the videos at normal speed didn't really show me anything but when I went home I copied them to my PC, used Avidemux (which is FREE) to rotate them, and crop them (see 'filters'), then played them in VLC player. You can press 'E' to move forward by 1 frame, and shift left/right to jump by 3 sec. In slow motion I could clearly see my problem. It appears I am playing around my chest or something, my hand is moving out away from my body and back in again, so at the moment of impact I am offline, and applying left hand side to the white, this makes the white jump right, and sends the object ball left of the pocket.

I think that when I am playing well, the timing of this oflline/online shift must be just right for me to get back on line before contact. But, when I am playing badly I have the timing slightly off. Before seeing the video in slow motion I would have sworn I was not moving the cue off line, but it's is very obvious at slow motion and is clearly my problem.

[Terry Davidson]

1986 & nrage:

Don't get disheartened as this is a very common problem and I've seen videos of good pros who do it and rely on their timing to get them back online with the cue, but it's the reason these pros are inconsistent. To tell you the truth, I discovered I was doing this exact same thing (grip hand moving to the right and then back on the delivery).

Now for the cure that worked for me as that is what you are most interested in. The first thing I did was to ensure my left armpit was down as low as possible which is turn gets the right shoulder up and locked in space but doesn't introduce discomfort. The next thing I did was to try and get my right elbow directly over the cue and for me this was difficult as mine seems to naturally hang outside the line of the cue 1-2 inches. So I changed my grip and moved the cue a little bit towards the end of the fingers by cockiong my wrist slightly, the important point being to get the butt of the cue directly beneath the long bone in the forearm (a lot of players have the butt slightly inside the long bone).

Part of this is also having a slow and very straight backswing since part of that grip hand movement was to compensate for me pulling the butt into my body slightly on the backswing. I also found I achieved better results by lengthening the backswing a bit from my normal shorter one. On the delivery it's also important to have the acceleration start slow and build up, and I found this was really difficult to try and concentrate on and master but then I found out it's a natural function of a longer backswing since as the elbow is rising from the end of the backswing the initial acceleration is slower.

So, the most important aspect of this is to slightly cock the wrist outward but only enough so the butt of the cue is directly under the long bone of the forearm and also try as hard as you can to get the elbow directly over the butt of the cue in the address position and ensure it stays there during the backswing and delivery. (A small note, if you watch Hendry very carefully you will see his elbow drops slightly into his back on the backswing and then returns to his normal position, just a touch inside, on the delivery as it rises). I believe this extra requirement for coordination and perfect timing is the real reason Hendry is having troubles and I hope his new coach (Ian Doyle I believe) will help him get rid of that extra and unrequired elbow movement.

Terry

[nrage]

Thanks Terry. I have tried what you mention .. but only in passing, and I typically fall back into my existing bad habits far too soon. I will make a more concerted effort next time I am at practice and I'll video myself again as slow motion playback seems to be an invaluable tool for seeing what's really happening, things you cannot see at 'normal' speed.

Of the things you mention the wrist cock is the hardest for me. I think my natural position, developed over years of pool playing, has my wrist straight and my elbow slightly inside my forearm, more behind my back. Over the last 6 months I have managed to get my elbow directly above my forearm (my latest videos show this) but trying to add the wrist cock sends it back behind my back again.

I'll try moving the cue toward the end of the fingers, that might make the wrist cock easier, and/or keep my elbow in.. when I have tried the wrist cock in the past I have found it gives me much less flexibility in my wrist, and seems to inhibit my backswing, as my wrist wont bend as far in that direction any more. Perhaps this is actually a good thing, as it appears to lock my wrist in one position .. but, this would then require me to relax my fingers even more to allow the cue to rock back and forth on the first finger/thumb grip point - like there is a pin through this point allowing the grip to pivot, and allow the cue to travel on a plane.. hmm, I must concentrate on trying that next time. Something I have worried about in the past is that the relaxing of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers on backswing, then putting them back on during the stroke might introduce some movement..

One thing I did notice on my video was both vertical and horizontal elbow movement during feathering, which probably means I am not keeping the cue on a level plane, or I am involving too many moving parts in order to do it - making it a complex action and therefore much harder to reproduce precisely each time. So, there's another thing for me to concentrate on, and perhaps your shoulder lock solution will go a long way to helping with this.

[Terry Davidson]

nrage:

First of all, there's nothing wrong with having the elbow slightly inside (see Higgins and Hendry who play that way).

Secondly, I can now see what the problem is for you. You say 'this would then require me to relax my fingers even more to allow the cue to rock back and forth on the first finger/thumb grip point' and I hate to tell you at this point since you have played a long time with an incorrect grip, BUT it is correct technique to relax the back 3 fingers and ALLOW THE BUTT OF THE CUE TO PUSH THEM OUT OF THE WAY. On delivery they should close on the butt ONLY when the back of the thumb hits the chest and not before.

Every player who doesn't relax the back 3 fingers tends to grip the cue too tight and too soon in the delivery and decelerates through the cueball. The only way I can describe the correct method is to 'let it flow' and not grip the cue until well after the cueball has been struck.

The whole idea of cocking the wrist a bit (or moving the but more towards the fingertips) is not only to align the butt with the long forearm bone but also to keep the wrist stable in the horizontal direction. There are a lot of very good players who allow their wrists to flex a bit in the front-to-back direction and in some books this is called the 'wrist flick' and Jimmy White was offered as the best example of this. Another very good player who used the method was Steve James, who got tremendous power into the cueball while seeming to make no effort to do it, much like Jimmy used to (haven't seen him in awhile now so not sure if he's still doing it).

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

nrage:

And also, it's a VERY good idea to video yourself just as you describe and then playing it back frame-by-frame on your computer. With the long straight blue you can use the pocket leather of the yellow or green pocket to watch for sideways movement in the grip hand and butt.

Even better is if you can afford to get a digital HD video camera (maybe 200pounds)and a tripod (20pounds) you can get much better resolution that using even an HD cellphone. I have a Sony with a 60Gb hard drive which get me about 90 minutes of recording and a couple of years ago it cost me about $700 or in your terms 450pounds or so, but worth every penny for a coach (and for myself primarily).

These cameras are much cheaper now I would think. Probably get one off eBay at a good price

Terry

[nrage]

I was just downstairs trying what you've said on the pool table, potting long 'blues' and attempting to follow the white into the pocket. It seems to have improved things quite a lot so I will definitely keep working on it.

The wrist cock does feel a little odd, but is now oddly comforting as I can feel when it's correct and when it's not. My wrist is not flexible enough to move in this position, so I don't think I could add a wrist flick even if I wanted to. My grip was already loose enough to allow the butt of the cue to push the 3 fingers out of the way, but with the new wrist position they open even more than before. On at least 1 shot I noticed more cue power than I typically generate and I think the new wrist position and looser grip is the cause.

See you in Gloucester in 2 weeks

[cally]

Ah, this sounds familiar, having a nightmare with my grip lately, it's like i forgot how to hold the blinking cue at times, i think i'm gripping the cue to early amongst other things, what terry says, lot's of it rings true to me put it that way...

I dunno, can't wait to see terry at glos in couple of weeks to point me in the right direction and pick up on a few things i could adjust/improve/work on...(i'm gonna end up like cazmac if i'm not careful...lol)


Not long now to my day at the academy, really looking forward to playing on these star tables aye...

(i dreamt of playing on a pro table when i was a youngster...sad but true...lol)

[jarcher]

The one thing I will say that helped me is to get your tip as close to the white as possible when getting down on the shot. This does not mean getting down with your tip 3 inches away then pushing the tip forward, which is where my flaws lay as this was actually putting me partially into my follow through, therefore my rear arm wasn't vertical at the point of impact. It's amazing, even if you are cueing across the ball, just how much this helps as you generally always return the tip back to where it started when your arm is vertical, hense. Better centre ball striking

[the priest]

Oh my god your all trying too hard to bend this bit here an that bit there..

get your elbow as close to above your cue as you can..

then forget technique play with comfort and precision..

you may end up like ray reardon miles to the right or perhaps cliff thorburn miles to the right
or perhaps john higgins half a mile left.. few world titles between em..
damn nearly missed mark williams half a mile right..

what matters is trusting the potting angle you see and taking your time to focus on splitting the pocket.

Lock into your target then pull it back straight and push it through straight.. if thats all you ask of your arm and wrist it will do its best to conform whether you are perfect or a little to one side or the other with your elbow..

Trust me cos ive been there and tried everything..

dont get me wrong i was yorkshire champion..ive had my share of ton breaks even had 2 147s practising on my own (one of which i secretly count cos someone watched)
Thing is coaches will have you convinced that if you put your right foot here an your hips here at 60 degrees an your cue under your left nipple or whatever and practice till your blue in the face.. your gonna beat mark selby next time out!

it just wont happen this game has to be worked at much like golf.. you need a repeating action fair enough, but thats more likely if you stick with your god given one.. ask joe swail

Worst advise ever by the way is the shot routine.. feather every shot the same between 2 and 4 strokes..
just doesnt work..

some shots take much longer to focus on ie shots to acute middle pockets.. watch hendry or davis in their prime plenty on you tube..

6 7 or 8 feathers for long shots or blind cut shots.. 4 feathers for standard shots and 1 or 2 for really easy tap ins.. that suggests to me a little fine tuning down on the shot.

Coaches always tell you the view from above the shot is best.. if thats the case why dont top players always cue the same number of times?

Even ronnie who mostly cues/feathers twice, will take longer on thin shots to the middle or long opening reds.

Okay rant over.. take your time and keep your head still.

[nrage]

Oh my god your all trying too hard to bend this bit here an that bit there..

get your elbow as close to above your cue as you can..

then forget technique play with comfort and precision..

I agree you don't need to be absolutely inch perfect in how you position your body, so as long as you're comfortable and able to push the cue through straight you should leave well enough alone.

The time to change something is when you're not able to push the cue through straight, or you're at the top of the game and looking for 1-2% more consistency. But .. you do need some objective way to measure it. Like a video playback at slow speeds for example.

In my case, I wasn't cueing straight and I didn't realise it. My arm/hand was on line to start with, and on line to finish, it was offline at the point of impact, when I was looking at the object ball and unable to see the fault.

The worst thing about a fault like this is that it feeds bad information to your brain so you start to doubt your ability to judge angles and pot balls. I am naturally a good potter, I used to beat my mates on a pool table most of the time, but I was tearing my hair out on the snooker table because the ball wasn't going where I wanted.

[1986jet]

Thank you for this Terry I will give this a try. I have noticed after videoing myself my wrist does indeed shoot out to the left before coming back in again so hopefully practicing this will help to correct that.
Nrage, Do you by any chance have a video of your new wrist position to give me a referance point for myself?

Many thanks.

[nrage]

Thank you for this Terry I will give this a try. I have noticed after videoing myself my wrist does indeed shoot out to the left before coming back in again so hopefully practicing this will help to correct that.
Nrage, Do you by any chance have a video of your new wrist position to give me a referance point for myself?

I have one at home which I haven't had time to look at yet, if I remember I'll have a look tonight and see if it shows anything useful.

My new wrist position is the one Terry recommends, more or less. When I saw him in glocester he commented that it was a bit "Ryan Day" like, and I've just the highlights of Mark Allen beating Matthew Stevens and it looks a bit like that too, with a twist about the vertical/forearm taking the smaller fingers 'off' the butt a little. My grip uses the 1st and maybe 2nd fingers, but the others just rest lightly on the cue, applying no pressure, moving/opening with the cue on backswing.

I make sure when I get down on the shot that the back of my hand kinks out from my forearm slightly, I also .. it's hard to describe, but one problem I have is that my elbow hangs in slightly so when I get down I kinda "create more space" under my armpit/shoulder by 'lifting' it slightly and thinking of it moving outward, which in turn brings my elbow out and above my grip hand. When I feather, and at the address position I can feel the cue touch my palm in a certain place along the little finger edge of my hand .. with more of a wrist kink you will feel it touch closer to the fingers, and with less kink it will be closer to the wrist, or not touch at all. I make sure it touches somewhere in the middle, about where I have a wrinkle going across my palm.. but, my vertical/forearm twist means this is closer to my wrist than it would be, without. So perhaps aiming to be slightly closer to the fingers is a good starting point. I use the touch point on the palm as a 'check' or reminder/assurance that I am cueing straight, if I don't feel it, I get back up and try again.

Hope that helps. Everyone is a bit different so my grip is unlikely to work for someone else 100%, but hopefully I've given you some things to think about. If all I do is make you examine your grip in more detail and notice things like where it touches the palm etc, then maybe that will help you find the grip that works for you. As the priest says, concentrating on tiny things too much may distract you from the goal, which is just to get the cue through straight, so keep the 'goal' in mind; bring the cue through straight and ignore any details that are not relevant by experimenting and videoing it to see if it actually makes any difference.