Perplexed

[sixofclubs]

I was wondering if you good players out there could maybe help me a little.

I posted elsewhere a few days ago in the "Newbies and Introductions" section so I won't go over old ground, but the key point is that I am effectively very new to snooker, since January when I had a couple of days coaching for my 40th birthday.

I am an ex pro golfer and have been at least decent in every sport I have tried, so while I'm not trying to win the world championship, I have enough ball striking ability and determination to hope to get quite good at this game one day.

However, the last few days for me have been very frustrating indeed. Practising alone I have been working on straight pots only, partly because I am still learning the angles but also because I need the feedback about my cueing.

I have found that I am consistently missing to the left. I do occasionally knock one in but I seem to miss (left to varying degrees) 90% of the time. Shorter pots are less of a problem, I am building breaks in the 20s and 30s which considering my lack of experience so far I am quite happy with. But missing the long ones by as much as I do is so frustrating because I don't understand why. Don't get me wrong, I am not expecting perfection, I am realistic - but if I am going to miss I'd rather it be by much much less.

I have an Aramith spotted training ball and know from chalk marks that I am definitely hitting centre of the cue ball. My cue seems to point at the pocket afterwards, I am staying still and I am not trying to thrash it.

I have had a friend check that my chin is over the cue and that my cueing arm is perpendicular to the ground, so given all these factors how the hell can the object ball squirt off to the left all the time?

Is my grip too light? Too tight? Sometimes I grip extra tight on purpose to see what happens and in it goes. Then I grip super light on purpose and they go in sometimes too. So, it is fair to say that I am quite confused and exasperated.

Today got so bad I found myself lining up a straight one to a the corner pocket with the rest, kneeling on the floor, to eliminate the error of 'normal cueing' and I still found myself missing left. The ONLY way I could knock in these stupidly simple tap-ins was to focus on starting the delivery with a really subtle slow, microscopic push forwards.

I know someone will say this is paralysis by analysis and maybe it is, but I am so confused by the science of it - how can I miss left if I know I am striking centre ball, my cue points straight afterwards and a mate tells me my set up over the balls is good.

I am even beginning to wonder if my cue is bent. I proved that wasn't so when I have the same issues with the 360 training cue (which I cue with quite comfortably not breaking the spring, proving that I am not forcing it or getting jerky).

It isn't an angles thing because I'm only practising the straight ones, so what next?!!!

I don't feel like playing anymore because if I can't knock in a reasonable amount of long straight ones then what's the point?

Your musings are much appreciated, thanks.

[komakino]

Hi,

If it's any consolation, I've been suffering exactly the same problem. Somehow even though everything seems ok with my stance, grip etc...when I miss I'm hitting the object ball slightly to the right and then the object ball is going to the left of the pocket.

My thoughts for the reasons are:

1) stance slightly too clockwise by a degree or so.
2) trace of left hand side on cue ball squirting the cue ball slightly right
3) eye sighting problem

I've discounted 1 and 2 (hopefully correctly) by:

1) lining up in front of a mirror to check if cue is in line with reflection of cue during feathers
2) playing cue ball along baulk line and up and down the spots with very little problems

That leaves possibility 3...the eyes.

I'm going to have to get back on the table and concentrate on this. I currently cue under the middle of my chin although it transpires that my right eye is my dominant eye. When I move my head sideways to the left to get my right eye over the cue however, everything just looks weird. I'm going to try centre chin cueing but rotating my head.

It's driving me mad to be honest.

[cally]

I have an Aramith spotted training ball and know from chalk marks that I am definitely hitting centre of the cue ball

How can you tell by chalk marks on the white you have definately hit centre ball?

The spots are their to 'see' how the ball reacts/spins when struck, by looking at this you will tell if your imparting unwanted side/spin etc... Not by looking at chalk marks.


Terry will be along too assist soon no doubt, he will point you in the right direction fella...

I will add, If your setup is all ok like you say and can't think of nothing else or reason why your missing to the left...When practicing long blues to the corner always aim for the edge of the leather to the pocket. (stops you catching the cush before the pocket, and miss to the left, if you get me...lol) this applies to most/all corner pocket pots and middle pocket pots. unless straight on middle or just ever so slightly off of course.

[cantpotforshíte]

If I were you (and if you haven't already tried it) I'd see what success you have with your eyes shut. Get down and get lined up for the shot as you would normally with your eyes open, and then close them before you start the final backswing. Play the shot with your eyes shut and get your mate to monitor it.
If you have more success with your eyes shut, then it's an eye thing ... if it makes no difference then it's another possible cause crossed off your list.

[sixofclubs]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm going to take the video camera to the golf club this avo (they have 2 tables at £1 an hour - happy days) and take a closer look. I would have done it before but I've only just got the chuffing thing working. I could probably do with looking at my golf swing too, but that's another story!

With regards the spotted training ball, I place it carefully so that one of the red spots is centre ball and strike with plenty of chalk and most times when I get the ball back there will be a chalk mark either on the red dot or very close to it. Of course if it is 'off' so to speak I can't tell which side I put on it, just that I did.

I will try with my eyes shut but most of the time I end up practising alone so that could be an issue! This is why I posted looking for a buddy 'cos doing it alone makes it much harder! Hopefully the video camera will help here.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Oh, and am I the only one who has noticed that John Higgins rotates his cue clockwise about 10 degrees on the delivery? It's amazing what you see in HD...

[Terry Davidson]

six:

There is only one possible explanation as to why you are missing left and that is you are applying unintentional LEFT hand side when you strike the cueball. Forget the eyes as an issue as it's one I can prove is wrong just by a simple test which I can give you if you need it. Also, forget the cue being crooked as it just doesn't matter.

Also, you are using the spotted cueball incorrectly. To determine if you are applying unintentional side, set an object ball about 2ft from a top pocket and set the cueball up on the baulkline so the shot is dead straight in to the edge of the leather as cally mentioned. Now hit this shot as a 'stop shot' (which is actually deep screw in this case) and your intention, or the target, is to stop the white on contact with the object ball.

When you try the shot, watch the cueball as it strikes the object ball and see if there is any spin at all at the time of contact. If there is I will guarantee it's almost always clockwise, which is unintentional left-hand side.

The basic cause(s) of unintentional side are as follows:
1. Very slight upper body movement on delivery (as a golf pro you know to keep your 5/6th vertibrae still in space, but in snooker although that is a good one it's actually the grip arm shoulder socket which must remain still in space). Nothing I can give you to help this outside of telling you to STAY STILL!!!
2. A turn of the wrist which in turn is moving the butt of the cue sideways a touch. As you mentioned Higgins does this slightly but his turn is well AFTER the strike whereas yours will be happening at time of stike or slightly before (see below for correction).
3. Gripping the cue too tight and too early in the delivery (a very common one and although most players THINK their grip is loose it's really not).

To get the grip pressue correctly, it's exactly the same loose pressure as golf. The true test (thanks to Steve Davis for this) is to grip your cue normally but across your hips. Now hold the shaft with the other hand and keep the grip hand still in space. Can you EASILY move the butt of the cue back and forth inside the grip with the left hand? If you cannot then your grip is too tight.

To stop gripping the cue too early and too tight in the delivery do these 2 things. Hold the cue even more loose and towards the fingertips so that there's a 'air gap' between the butt of the cue and the web between thumb and forefinger (not recommended as a way to play, just a way to get the feel of a really loose grip). The thumb does not apply any pressure at all, it just hold the butt in the bed of the 4 fingers. The primary hold on the cue is with the upper inside of the thumb and forefinger.

Secondly, DO NOT TIGHTEN THE GRIP ON THE CUE UNTIL THE BACK OF THE THUMB OF THE GRIP HAND STRIKES THE CHEST. This is a REALLY important point which most players do not do and it took me a long time to 'get' this. I've even had good players argue that this part of the technique is not necessary as the cueball is already on its way. Believe me, this part is REALLY NECESSARY as it will help control any tendency towards upper body movement and also guarantee a good follow-through.

As a golf pro you should be able to use identical techniques in your snooker and I would suspect you will catch on to snooker very quickly. Loose grip, slow backswing, smooth acceleration on delivery, drive the cue through to completion...these statements hold true for either snooker or golf

Terry

[sixofclubs]

Thank you Terry for your incisive and lengthy reply. You are a gent.

I have just tried to do a little drill whereby I literally push the cue ball in a straight line aiming at a pocket. Sounds easy in theory and after I nailed the first three I thought it was going to be.....then I started to put side on it, not much, but of course this would swerve the white and I would miss the pocket. It really hit home how critical it is to strike the centre of the cue ball and that it is in fact a little harder than it looks.

My spotted training ball showed it up even more as I now had time to watch the clockwise revolutions. I am aware of the need to look for this but I also felt that placing a dot in the centre and looking for a chalk mark made some sense also.

I haven't set the camera up yet but when I do I will look for all the things you suggested.

Regards

sixofclubs

[komakino]

Hi,

I've just been doing some thinking and subsequent tests regarding the eyes. I wouldn't discount them so soon. Try this.

Imagine your finger tip is the cue ball and a distant object is the object ball. Hold up your finger an line them up. Rotate your head. They move out of line. This is known as the parallax effect. When I'm stood behind the shot, when I rotate my body to the right to get the cue on line, although my nose is on the line of the shot as advised, my head is rotated to the right. I've discovered that this is bad for me at least and maybe for other people too. If I rotate my head back to the left so it's facing exactly forwards then I can see that the line of the shot appears slightly to the left compared with a second ago. Maybe why this is why I'm hitting slightly to the right? It is not necessarily left hand striking on the cue ball but observing the line of the shot to be a degree or so clockwise of what it actually is.

Thoughts?

[sixofclubs]

Thanks also komakino,

Yes, that makes some sense. I will do the finger test tomorrow morning when I head back to the club ( I went tonight but my sodding video camera battery was flat - humph) - I do suspect that sighting is an issue for me. The good thing is that I am consistently putting a smidge of left hand side on the white and while that is frustrating, on the bright side it does mean it's fixable and that I'm actually consistent. I know from coaching golfers, that the easiest ones to help are the ones with a consistent fault, usually caused by an error in perception, whether it be alignment, grip or a swing angle.

I am feeling a bit more positive in one sense that I will lick it and find my way - to be fair to myself I've only been playing 5 mnutes in the scheme of things so I mustn't get too down on myself.

[sixofclubs]

...oh, and something else I wondered - I checked my tip tonight and it's got a subtle slant to it - surely this can't be good? When I try the push drill at super slow speed it's amazing how quickly I start to shove the ball off line.

Should the tip be domed, flat or what? How often does it need replacing? It's been on since February when I bought the cue. It's 9mm - I measured it after seeing somewhere that 10mm is the ideal tip size.

[komakino]

you improved any m8?

[sixofclubs]

I went and had a couple of hours with Nic Barrow which was quite revealing. We established that I needed to tighten my grip a little, we changed my stance to give my cueing arm some room and we got me to adjust my head position to stop me moving and also to give me a better perception of straight aiming.

It will be interesting to see how I get on with this new information...I was certainly cueing well at the end of the session which was a pleasant change.

My golf used to be like this - it was often just a few tweaks here and there that seemed to make a disproportional difference.

I shall remind myself of this the next time I start to struggle...

[nrage]

My spotted training ball showed it up even more as I now had time to watch the clockwise revolutions. I am aware of the need to look for this but I also felt that placing a dot in the centre and looking for a chalk mark made some sense also.

It does, but there is 1 problem with it. It only tells you where the cue tip struck the ball, not which direction the cue was traveling in at the time. If you cue slightly across the line of aim i.e. left to right, you will strike the dot with the left hand side of the tip, it will leave a chalk mark, but the white will react like you've applied right hand side.

Seeing a coach was definitely the way forward

[komakino]

I went and had a couple of hours with Nic Barrow which was quite revealing. We established that I needed to tighten my grip a little, we changed my stance to give my cueing arm some room and we got me to adjust my head position to stop me moving and also to give me a better perception of straight aiming.

It will be interesting to see how I get on with this new information...I was certainly cueing well at the end of the session which was a pleasant change.

My golf used to be like this - it was often just a few tweaks here and there that seemed to make a disproportional difference.

I shall remind myself of this the next time I start to struggle...

What were the stance alterations please? Rotation of body or a different part of the foot on the line etc?

Also, was the head position change to do with to eye dominance?

[baldy79]

it sounds to me that you may be cueing very slightly across the white. Are you left or right handed? your tip should generally as a rule be domed and any slant isnt a good sign. First thing to do would be to have the cue retipped. You may want to try a few different tips until you find one that suits your style of play as they vary greatly. Next is your stance depending on whether your left or right handed. If your right handed so your left hand is on the table try lining the shot up from a standing positionthen take one step forward with your right leg and have your foot angled in the position of the shot. if it doesnt feel quite right get up and eallign the shot again. As you practise this you will find it will become more natural and you will come to know when your correctly stanced.