Confused about touching ball rules

[gravenalone]

I have a question regarding on touching ball rules. I had a strong debate with the referee during a local tourney and he called a foul on me which made me feel i was in an impossible situation to not make a foul.

In a scenario where the cue ball is touching another colour ball after potting a colour ball, and obviously the next shot is to hit a red. Is it a foul even when the player plays away from the touching colour ball and hit on a red?

[Kyra]

The cue ball was touching a colour. So it's not a touching ball as in the rule book. It's just two balls touching each other. You can only have a touching ball situation, when the cue ball ist touching a ball on (or possible ball on, when it's a colour). In your situation you had to hit a red first. Should you touch the colour, let's say with your cue, or the ball moves while you make your shot, it's a foul.

[Souwester]

A touching ball is defined as when the cue ball is touching a ball that is or could be on. In the situation you describe the balls were touching, but since a colour had just been potted, the fact that the cue ball was touching another colour was not a 'touching ball'. However, that still means that you need to play away from the colour without disturbing it,*AND* hit a red to be a fair shot.

Paragraph (d) is the relevant part of the rule.

8. Touching Ball
(a) If the cue-ball comes to rest touching another ball or balls that are, or could be, on, the referee shall state TOUCHING BALL and indicate which ball or balls on the cue-ball is touching.

(b) When a touching ball has been called, the striker must play the cue-ball away from that ball without moving it or it is a push stroke.

(c) Providing the striker does not cause the object ball to move, there shall be no penalty if:
(i) the ball is on,
(ii) the ball could be on and the striker declares he is on it, or
(ii) the ball could be on and the striker declares, and first hits, another ball that could be on.

(d) If the cue-ball comes to rest touching or nearly touching a ball that is not on, the referee, if asked whether it is touching, will answer YES or NO. The striker must play away without disturbing it as above but must first hit a ball that is on.

(e) When the cue-ball is touching both a ball on and a ball not on, the referee shall only indicate the ball on as touching. If the striker should ask the referee whether the cue-ball is also touching the ball not on, he is entitled to be told.

(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.

(g) If a stationary object ball, not touching the cue-ball when examined by the referee, is later seen to be in contact with the cue-ball before a stroke has been made, the balls shall be repositioned by the referee to his satisfaction.

[gravenalone]

Very informative. Thanks guys

[walshy_mate]

What if you pot a red and are then touching with the pink for example. Does this mean you cannot pot another color on the table and must play away from the pink like a normal touching ball situation??

[57varieties]

I think I am right in saying that he can go for another cloour but must nominate that colour, the fact that he is touching pink does not prevent him from hiting another colour whether potting it or playing safe as long as he nominates the colour and the pink in this case does not move.

[Souwester]

I think I am right in saying that he can go for another cloour but must nominate that colour, the fact that he is touching pink does not prevent him from hiting another colour whether potting it or playing safe as long as he nominates the colour and the pink in this case does not move.

Yes, that's correct. Para (c) (iii) of the rule covers this: "(c) Providing the striker does not cause the object ball to move, there shall be no penalty if:...the ball could be on and the striker declares, and first hits, another ball that could be on." After potting the red, all six colours *could* be on, including the pink, so, provided the player nominates a different colour then he's entitled to play it, without penalty if that's the first ball he strikes. If he nominates the pink then he need only play away from it.

[walshy_mate]

Yes I always thought the same. Just one of those rules i couldnt really get around. But i believe that is correct.

[taipafan]

【(e) When the cue-ball is touching both a ball on and a ball not on, the referee shall only indicate the ball on as touching. If the striker should ask the referee whether the cue-ball is also touching the ball not on, he is entitled to be told.】

【If the cue ball is touching a red and the blue and red is the ball on and you play away from the red but the blue moves is this a foul ? 】

How about the cue ball is very close to the blue, may or may not be touching the blue...

Case I: The cue ball is NOT touching the blue, so a fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....NO foul.

Case II: The cue ball is touching the blue. Since the referee did not tell anything about touching blue, and the striker did not ask. A fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....Is it a foul?

Case III: The cue ball is touching the blue. Since the referee did not tell anything about touching blue. The striker goes to have a look and thinks it is not a touching blue. A fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....Is it a foul?
(Is there a rule(?): A ball is touching only when the referee has stated it is a touching ball)

[arnold jones]

Whilst reading parts of the WPBSA Rules the other day I came accross Section 3 Rule 21b which I had never seen before.
When was this rule introduced ?

[arnold jones]

Rule 21b suggests that when there is no Ref., the opposing player or side should act as Ref.
It makes complete sence.
For years we at the club have been playing pairs snooker with partners re-spotting the colours and keeping score.
This Rule 21b suggests that the player leaving the table should then act as ref. for next striker (opposition).
Comments welcomed.

[DeanH]

Whilst reading parts of the WPBSA Rules the other day I came accross Section 3 Rule 21b which I had never seen before.
When was this rule introduced ?

Was not in 1991 and before but was in 1995 and ever since.

[DeanH]

Rule 21b suggests that when there is no Ref., the opposing player or side should act as Ref.
It makes complete sence.
For years we at the club have been playing pairs snooker with partners re-spotting the colours and keeping score.
This Rule 21b suggests that the player leaving the table should then act as ref. for next striker (opposition).
Comments welcomed.

I am sure many people have done this over the decades
If you want to can ask the opponents to do the refereeing and scores but not keep your buddy to pick out he balls for you
As long it all works for you all, just enjoy

I feel this rule was added purely because the official referees got tired of being ask "...but what if we don't have a ref?"

[DeanH]

Apologies for the late reply, did not see this post first time round

【(e) When the cue-ball is touching both a ball on and a ball not on, the referee shall only indicate the ball on as touching. If the striker should ask the referee whether the cue-ball is also touching the ball not on, he is entitled to be told.】
【If the cue ball is touching a red and the blue and red is the ball on and you play away from the red but the blue moves is this a foul ? 】

Yes this is a foul if the cue ball causes the blue to move. If touching Red and Blue and Blue is Ball On, still a foul as cue ball causes the Blue to move.

How about the cue ball is very close to the blue, may or may not be touching the blue...
Case I: The cue ball is NOT touching the blue, so a fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....NO foul.

Correct. Just to be clear, with Blue as ball on, no foul*; if Blue not ball on, Foul.
*As long as you do not commit a push shot, as you describe the finest cut should be ok (but don’t ask Mark King )

Case II: The cue ball is touching the blue. Since the referee did not tell anything about touching blue, and the striker did not ask. A fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....Is it a foul?

Yes this is a foul, push shot. Whether Blue is ball on or not
A referee will not call a touching ball if the ball the cue ball is touching is NOT the ball on or could be on. If Blue is ball on or could be on the referee should call and if necessary indicate the touching ball. A scenario for the Referee to not call a ball on touching ball is if the striker plays the stroke too quickly for the referee to call. Still a foul.

Case III: The cue ball is touching the blue. Since the referee did not tell anything about touching blue. The striker goes to have a look and thinks it is not a touching blue. A fine cut to the blue and move the blue a little....Is it a foul?

Yes this is a foul if the referee was satisfied that the cue ball was touching the blue. Again, don’t know why the referee would not call this scenario.

(Is there a rule(?): A ball is touching only when the referee has stated it is a touching ball)

No.
There can be a touching ball with no call, i.e. the ball concerned is not the Ball on.

[arnold jones]

The answers to most queries can be found by simply reading the WPBSA Rules.
The problem then is interpriting the rules as they were meant.