Dropping Elbow Too Early?

[stjimmy18-1991]

Hey guys, i'd like to ask a question regards my technique. A friend of mine recently pointed out that when i do a screw shot, i dont actually hit the bottom of the cue ball, more precisely, just below centre.

I shrugged it off until i filmed myself doing a screw shot, and noticed that as i follow through, my cue "dips" just before hitting the cue ball, raising the cue and hitting higher than i originally aimed.

After some experimentation in the mirror, this only happens when i drop my elbow.

Being a follower of Del Hill, i've added dropping the elbow into my technique, but in this case, could it be actually hindering my ability to generate cue power?

Has anyone got any thoughts on this? Cheers.

[Monty]

Keeping your chin on the cue all through the shot should prevent you from dropping the cue.

[Terry Davidson]

Also, when you are doing a screw shot do you lower your bridge to get the tip down (you should) or else raise the butt to drop the tip down (this is incorrect).

It does sound like you're getting the shoulder into the shot too early and usually this is caused by the grip being too tight and results in the player 'scooping' the cueball, just like you're doing. So, loosen the grip and also ALWAYS adjust the height of the tip by raising and lowering the bridge. Do not adjust the height of the tip by raising/lowering the butt of the cue (which is a very common fault by the way)

Terry

[stjimmy18-1991]

My chin is on the cue at all times, except after my delivery. The dipping means the butt end goes down, and the cue leaves my chin.

During that filming i did, i can comfirm i do raise the butt to get to the bottom of the ball. I'll try loosening my grip some more but i already thought i had a loose enough one.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mal619#p/u/7/EWEVfsQ2g_U

Here is a shot of my cue action a year ago. Since then i have a rear pause and slower backswing, but the cue still dips today during the follow through as it does then.

[throtts]

Your cue action in the vid looks okay. I hate the rear pause you say your doing now, not for me anyway.

Is your bridge the correct distance.?.

[stjimmy18-1991]

Yeah good point, since then i've also worked with a coach to get my tip closer to the cue ball with my bridge the correct distance away, and my back arm pointing vertically down.

[Inoffthered]

Yeah good point, since then i've also worked with a coach to get my tip closer to the cue ball with my bridge the correct distance away, and my back arm pointing vertically down.

I'm no coach ( so maybe best to pass on my opinion here ), but from what I can see... your technique isn't terrible by any stretch. If you feel good, time the ball sweetly and the balls keep going in, why change anything? If you're comfortable too, just enjoy the game.

If however, you feel the need to change something and that it will make your technique stronger in a tense match situation, do it. At least you have a good base to start with. Good luck.

[stjimmy18-1991]

Cheers.

Yeah this isn't anything to do with potting. Its more cue power and timing. I've never been able to super screw the ball back without completely bashing the ball and throwing my body into it.

I was looking for reasons about why i cant get alot of screw from distance, and low and behold i saw myself not even hitting the bottom of the cue ball!

[Inoffthered]

Cheers.

Yeah this isn't anything to do with potting. Its more cue power and timing. I've never been able to super screw the ball back without completely bashing the ball and throwing my body into it.

I was looking for reasons about why i cant get alot of screw from distance, and low and behold i saw myself not even hitting the bottom of the cue ball!

Well... there are far more experienced coaches and experts on the game than myself, but this works for me. You talk about Del Hill's coaching technique. He talks about the 'front pause'. This is a huge plus for your timing.

It is however, hard to put into words on a forum, without being able to show you in person, here goes...

As you feather the white, ( cueing up to the cueball ), get into your rhythm, once you "know" WHEN you're going to hit the white... you hold the tip of the cue as close to the white as you can, that split second longer "hold", is the pause before the final backswing. Just at the point a fraction BEFORE you pull back on the final backswing, you switch your eyes to the point of contact on the object ball that you are aiming at. It is this combination of actions that makes up the 'front pause'.

Hold your eyes at the same spot until you strike the cueball, then you are free to move your eyes where ever you want ( tho some will advocate the holding of your eye line ).

It is your timing that needs to be improved to get a better reaction. Front pause is the key ( imho ). I do not have the smoothest of actions on the final backswing ( before delivery ), yet even my action is slowed down naturally by using a front pause.

If Terry would like to contribute ( amongst others on here? ), as I am in no ways a coach.

Give it a try m8.

[mattyshinobi22]

dont think it matters, but your left leg leaning back, as you should have more weight foward, if u take a little step back will straighten it up.
just a thought

[Terry Davidson]

I am a stong advocate for the front pause and I was taught that it is more important than having a rear pause which was unheard of in Canada when I learned in the 60's. Also, I've heard there's a shift among some of the top coaches who are starting to advocate a good front pause just before the final backswing.

I use that and also try (it's hard though) to use the 'elbow-only' delivery, keeping the wrist and back 3 fingers from moving at all so the forefinger grip is just an extension of the forearm. If I get this during a session I start making everything and without any effort (I feel like JUdd Trump...I wish!!!!) but it changes everything and gives me bags of confidence so I hope I can master this before the Canadians start on Sunday

Terry

[nrage]

If Terry would like to contribute ( amongst others on here? ), as I am in no ways a coach.

Your advice sounds pretty good to me.

This is not a disagreement, just another angle of conversation; The concept of 'timing' is a useful one, but it doesn't actually exist anywhere except inside our heads. Physics is physics, it has a set of immutable laws, often quite complex for how objects interact in 3D space. So, it should be possible (I could be more sure if someone had actually tried to do this) to build a robot which can generate maximum screw 100% of the time. This robot would have no need for a concept of 'timing', 'timing' would not factor into how it generated screw. It would simply hit the cue ball in the correct place with as much speed as it could, which is actually all we're trying to do. Timing is just a concept we use to help us achieve this.

Such a robot would actually be quite useful, as you could use it to test materials for cues, tips, and other things to see what effect these have (as the robot is keeping the other variables fixed, which is a requirement for any scientific experiment, controlling the variables you are not testing).

Of course, the robot would not be able to measure some of the trickier variables, the ones which are introduced by us being human and not all the same. Things like how the weight and balance of the cue affect how easy it is to keep it on line (potentially different for each of us depending on arm section lengths, strength, etc), or control it's lateral movement, etc.

The Gravity cue for example claims to help prevent lateral movement, and certainly would offer some resistance to twisting from what I can see. I have a 360 pure cue which I have been playing around with recently and it is definitely telling me when I add unwanted forces on the cue, but some people I have shown it to, while being ok players already, have trouble with it due to features of their cue action, like how hard they press the cue into their chest (to keep it on line).

.. like I said, not a disagreement as I think 'timing' is a useful concept, the front pause helps settle the mind and get it focused, which in turn helps us be more accurate in where we strike the ball, and more relaxed in the grip arm allowing more speed and all that adds up to more screw

[stjimmy18-1991]

Thanks for the input guys. I'll try and get a more up-to-date video of my cue action. I do have a natural front pause, ive never had to learn it.

And possibly one of the reasons it looks like my straight leg is too far forward is because i have double-jointed legs, and my knee joint gets pushed further back than normal.

But im still not much closer to finding out the reason why i dip the cue on the follow through. It doesn't effect my potting ability, i knocked in a nice 73 yesterday closing in my first ton, but im certainly limited in the amount of screw i can put on the ball, particularly along distance.

I've done all exercises for timing, but of course, none of this matters if you are not hitting the bottom of the cue ball, which i am not at the moment!

[nrage]

I've done all exercises for timing, but of course, none of this matters if you are not hitting the bottom of the cue ball, which i am not at the moment!

Have you tried the grip with just forefinger and thumb. I found when I tried this I was better able to strike where I intended, simply because it was different to my normal action and therefore had no associated learned behaviour. Plus, with this grip you cannot influence the cue without really trying, and it's easier to stop that.

Something that stops many people hitting the bottom is an unconscious fear of ripping the cloth. In actual fact it's very hard to actually rip the cloth, and if you watch the pros (in slow motion) you'll see the cue tip actually run across the cloth in a screw shot, and/or finishes resting on the cloth. Does yours?

[stjimmy18-1991]

The forefinger and thumb is my grip lol.

I'm not scared at all. I feather REALLY low during a deep screw shot, so that my tip is resting on the cloth during my front pause. But the problem is during the delivery. It's not an unconsious reaction to suddenly aim higher, it is a cueing fault that only happens when i drop my elbow.

If i keep the elbow up, i'll strike the bottom all the time, but i dont get the same amount of follow through as i would if my grip hand follows right through and into my chest.

I'll try and get a better video asap. All my practice partners who drop their elbow keep the cue during the delivery, just not me for some reason.