aiming

[Gerry Armstrong]

It's clear to me in this thread so far that there's a lot of confusion about 'aiming point'. Understandably so.

Yes, we all try to 'aim' or 'send' the cue ball so that when it contacts the object ball, the exact point where the surface of the 2 balls touch is meant to be the exact point on the object ball that is on the back of the object ball (BOB) directly in line with the pocket drop intended.

The line of aim is a different thing entirely for me. It's the line that goes through centre of the cue ball at all times during the shot. The cue is also along this line.

Surely people can see that the centre of the white is never aimed at the contact point or BOB unless the pot is full ball?

I'm certainly not confused. They are of course 2 different things but the question is where you look when you get down on the shot and the answer from all the top coaches and 99% of players is BOB.

[komakino]

Is that so...99% you say? I guess Steve Davis and I must be in the 1% of players. Whatever works for each individual I suppose. I've always been a little different...

I can't see looking at BOB helping me to cue straight I must say. BOB isn't along the line of the cue apart from on full ball shots.

To put a different slant on things: Where I look is where the centre of the cue ball needs to get to in order to get BOB and FCB (point on front of cue ball that touches the OB) together. If you're going to look/aim at BOB that's not on the line of the cue ball except for full ball pots when down on the shot then good luck keeping that cue on line. If you're meaning something along the lines of "I'm aiming the cue ball at BOB but not the cue" then the very very best of luck to you.

P.S. By the way, to the vast 99% majority out there, is the BOB you all aim for with or without throw compensation?

[Gerry Armstrong]

Is that so...99% you say? I guess Steve Davis and I must be in the 1% of players. Whatever works for each individual I suppose. I've always been a little different...

I can't see looking at BOB helping me to cue straight I must say. BOB isn't along the line of the cue apart from on full ball shots.

To put a different slant on things: Where I look is where the centre of the cue ball needs to get to in order to get BOB and FCB (point on front of cue ball that touches the OB) together. If you're going to look/aim at BOB that's not on the line of the cue ball except for full ball pots when down on the shot then good luck keeping that cue on line. If you're meaning something along the lines of "I'm aiming the cue ball at BOB but not the cue" then the very very best of luck to you.

P.S. By the way, to the vast 99% majority out there, is the BOB you all aim for with or without throw compensation?

It's quite clearly you who is confused. Where you look when getting down on the shot and where you aim are two different things. I thought you understood that but it seems you don't. I never at any point said you aim for the BOB, I stated quite clearly that you look at the BOB as you get down on the shot on the line of aim. I did NOT say that the line of aim is the BOB.

You should get some help from a coach as it's easier to explain these things in person on a table than via a forum like this.

[komakino]

It's quite clearly you who is confused. Where you look when getting down on the shot and where you aim are two different things. I thought you understood that but it seems you don't. I never at any point said you aim for the BOB, I stated quite clearly that you look at the BOB as you get down on the shot on the line of aim. I did NOT say that the line of aim is the BOB.

You should get some help from a coach as it's easier to explain these things in person on a table than via a forum like this.

Nope, you've explained yourself properly and I understand perfectly. Don't need a coach for common sense. My cue action...that's another matter entirely

The whole point of this discussion was my questioning of Terry stating that one should focus on BOB when down on the shot.

What for? BOB is the estimated point of contact between the two balls that is settled upon when lining up the shot correctly when stood up. If you think it's wrong or not sure then get up again.

When you're down on the shot you should be focussing on sending that white along the line of the shot...aiming the centre of the white definitely NOT at BOB. Look at the diagram in the link I posted above. The aiming point is not BOB as you say above. Terry also conceded this and yet still went on to insist that one should be looking at BOB. If the centre of the cue ball needs to pass through a point in space outside the object ball's surface in order to pot the ball (or make FCB hit BOB) then I'll be aiming/looking at that point in space...never at BOB.

[DandyA]

I'm with komakino on this ... from a standing position, I assess the BOB and from that the line of aim then when I'm down on the shot, I check the direction the cue is pointing is on my chosen line of aim (by flicking my eyes between cue, cueball and object ball) ... once happy with that, at the front pause, I look up and concentrate on the line of aim - at this point, the object ball is in focus and I'm aware of the BOB but I'm concentrating on the line of aim and hopefully have that in the direct centre of my vision ...

So you're not totally alone komakino

[Gerry Armstrong]

Nope, you've explained yourself properly and I understand perfectly. Don't need a coach for common sense. My cue action...that's another matter entirely

The whole point of this discussion was my questioning of Terry stating that one should focus on BOB when down on the shot.

What for? BOB is the estimated point of contact between the two balls that is settled upon when lining up the shot correctly when stood up. If you think it's wrong or not sure then get up again.

When you're down on the shot you should be focussing on sending that white along the line of the shot...aiming the centre of the white definitely NOT at BOB. Look at the diagram in the link I posted above. The aiming point is not BOB as you say above. Terry also conceded this and yet still went on to insist that one should be looking at BOB. If the centre of the cue ball needs to pass through a point in space outside the object ball's surface in order to pot the ball (or make FCB hit BOB) then I'll be aiming/looking at that point in space...never at BOB.

If that works for you that's fine. As I pointed out in an earlier post, all the top coaches, including Steve Davis, advocate looking at the back of the ball as it's impossible to focus on a point in mid air that you can't see and 99% of players use this method. Nothing wrong with being in the minority but that accolade belongs to you, not Terry.

[komakino]

So you're not totally alone komakino

That's a relief.

People...c'mon. Don't be looking at a point (BOB) that is either left or right of the line of the cue when down on the shot.

The cue is a rifle, the cue ball is a bullet. A 2 and a 1/16th inch wide bullet. If you're playing a 1/2 ball pot, that rifle needs to be aimed at the edge of the object ball. The eyes need to be on the edge of the object ball. BOB is somewhere else...

[komakino]

If that works for you that's fine. As I pointed out in an earlier post, all the top coaches, including Steve Davis, advocate looking at the back of the ball as it's impossible to focus on a point in mid air that you can't see and 99% of players use this method. Nothing wrong with being in the minority but that accolade belongs to you, not Terry.

".....it's impossible to focus on a point in mid air that you can't see ...."

I think this is a general mis-interpretation by most.

Aiming at a point on a homogenous surface like a red for example, and aiming for a point on a green background (table cloth) next to it isn't any different in my opinion. Don't forget...'mid air'???? The OB isn't floating in space is it? It's on a snooker table and therefore in most cases is against a green background.

Is it really easier to see a point on a red surface with no markings than a green surface with no markings? What enables a person to see a point? A point of reference that's what. The edge of the ball. 10mm inside or 10mm outside. Easy to see both in my opinion. If anything, easier to see outside the ball for me because there may even be a chalk mark on the cloth for me to use

I think the comments above from coaches about the advocation of BOB are intended for simply estimating the potting angle when stood up. NOT for where you should be looking when down on the shot. Does that make any more sense?

I really can't see any coach intentionally telling someone to look anywhere other than the line of the shot when down. It's a matter of describing exactly what you mean to teach.

Steven hendry was always noted as being unusual for his trademark 3 point eye movement. CB, OB and pocket (off line) when down. To me, looking at BOB when down on the shot is just as unusual as it is also off line.

[DandyA]

That's a relief.

People...c'mon. Don't be looking at a point in space (BOB) that is either left or right of the line of the cue when down on the shot.

The cue is a rifle, the cue ball is a bullet. A 2 and a 1/16th inch wide bullet. If you're playing a 1/2 ball pot, that rifle needs to be aimed at the edge of the object ball. The eyes need to be on the edge of the object ball. BOB is somewhere else...

a 1/2 ball pot is a very good example since as you say, the aiming point is the edge of the object ball ... I understand that people use different techniques but are the "BOB aimers" really saying they would concentrate on the BOB even when there's a much easier alternative, ie the edge of the object ball ...

[Gerry Armstrong]

".....it's impossible to focus on a point in mid air that you can't see ...."

I think this is a general mis-interpretation by most.

Aiming at a point on a homogenous surface like a red for example, and aiming for a point on a green background (table cloth) next to it isn't any different in my opinion. Don't forget...'mid air'???? The OB isn't floating in space is it? It's on a snooker table and therefore in most cases is against a green background.

Is it really easier to see a point on a red surface with no markings than a green surface with no markings? What enables a person to see a point? A point of reference that's what. The edge of the ball. 10mm inside or 10mm outside. Easy to see both in my opinion.

I think the rumour above about the advocation of BOB is for estimating the potting angle. NOT for where you should be looking when down on the shot. Does that make any more sense?

What you're saying is easy to understand, it just happens to be the opposite to what every top coach says on the subject.

To use Nic Barrow as an example, he explains in some detail why he believes it is a bad idea to try and focus on an imaginary point in mid air and the problems you will encounter if you use this method. I would strongly suggest you read his Training Guide, "Aiming, Sighting and Potting".

[komakino]

What you're saying is easy to understand, it just happens to be the opposite to what every top coach says on the subject.

To use Nic Barrow as an example, he explains in some detail why he believes it is a bad idea to try and focus on an imaginary point in mid air and the problems you will encounter if you use this method. I would strongly suggest you read his Training Guide, "Aiming, Sighting and Potting".

I've read it. It makes sense for the most. Each to his own.

But I must stress that '...mid-air..' is redundant. We aren't playing anti-gravity snooker (yet).

Can you tell my why you personally find looking at an imaginary point on a ball's surface easier than an imaginary point outside of the ball's surface?

Full ball for example:

There is no spot on the centre of the OB. People actually forget BOB in this instance and go to the 100% overlap disc method. Trying to put the centre of the CB over the centre of the OB. This is the method that they automatically throw away when the shot is not full ball....why??

[Gerry Armstrong]

I've read it. It makes sense for the most. Each to his own.

But I must stress that '...mid-air..' is redundant. We aren't playing anti-gravity snooker (yet).

Can you tell my why you personally find looking at an imaginary point on a ball's surface easier than an imaginary point outside of the ball's surface?

Then how can you make the statement above that you can't really see a coach telling someone to look at the back of the ball when on the shot? Nic goes to great lengths in that guide to say exactly that!! Yet you still doubt coaches teach their students that? It's written down in black and white.

[komakino]

Because I can't see why. It's not on the line of aim. Looking at something that isn't on the line of aim when down on the shot can't be good for the cue action. Using BOB to estimate the line of the cue ball travel is all well and good. It's not an aiming point though. It can't be apart from full ball pots. When you've decided the intended path of the centre of the cue ball then that's your aiming line. No point in looking along any other line.

If it's meant to be done in order to double check the intended collision cross-section then also, why? You aimed when stood up! Unless it's so you can force yourself to get back up again if it looks wrong? Surely not to let you do micro-adjustments. That's a NO NO (thanks Terry...got that from you!). It's going to look different when you're down compared with how it looked when you were stood up in any case. A 30 degree pot when stood up looks more like 35-40 degrees when down.

[Gerry Armstrong]

Because I can't see why...

I don't mind if you disagree with them or not, you're perfectly entitled to, but the way I read what you wrote was you were saying that they don't actually say that. They do.

But if it doesn't work for you fair enough, just don't try and convince everyone that they must be wrong because you don't understand it.

[throtts]

I determine the line of shot and imagine the completed shot when standing up. My cue goes down on that line of shot, end of. If it feels wrong then I get off the shot to have another look. The line is the line, backed up by the line in which the cue is running. And nothing changes when applying side as well..