Elbow perfectly vertical?

[calogero1]

Hi all,

First-time poster here. I've done a search on this topic and couldn't find any recent thread titles specifically addressing it, so here goes.

Having observed myself in a tableside mirror and on video, I can see during shots (straight and otherwise) that the tip of my grip hand's elbow - and indeed, the upper arm - is pointing slightly away from the body, so the entire upper arm is at an angle of about 110 degrees to the table bed.

It doesn't seem to impede my cueing too much, as I can consistently make straight pots. Occasionally, though, during a 'shooting over the spots' exercise the cue ball is sometimes carrying unintentional side when returning to baulk (although this could be attributed to lack of experience).

In your opinion, does it matter if the upper arm/elbow is directed away from the body? Should it really be perfectly vertical and directly behind the shot?

I'd appreciate any and all advice.

Cheers.

[snookerdad]

It’s like many things in snooker. Vertical would be ideal. However, if you are delivering your cue in a straight line, then why change?

Changing for the sake of it can cause big problems.

When I’m working with an experienced player with an elbow off vertical who can pass all the tests for straight cueing, we would discuss it but I would recommend no change.

Tim Dunkley (World Snooker coach)

[CoachGavin]

If you think it is the cause of you putting side on the white then I would look to getting it straight. It could be that you have a grip that is into your palm too much and that can cause your elbow to jut out. Try filming yourself especially from behind so you can see your grip and where you may be coming across. That should help you to spot the error. Like snookerdad says if its not causing a problem then do not change it.

[Terry Davidson]

I agree with the above 2 comments which also happen to agree with Frank Callan (rated to be the best snooker coach who ever existed). A quick review of the top pros will show some with their elbows hanging out (Mark Williams comes to mind) and others with the elbow hanging into their backs a bit (Higgins and Hendry in this case).

As long as you're not cueing like Jamie Cope, who has his elbow out about 6inches or more but has obviously learned how to cue straight, I wouldn't worry about it (although I believe Cope will suffer for this as he gets a little older and his coordination starts to slip).

To anybody who will use Ray Reardon as an example of playing with the elbow way out (he has coached Cope too) remember he had his shoulder broken in a mining accident when young and it was never set properly and he couldn't get his elbow behind the cue. For hinm an advantage as his elbow was locked in position.

Terry

[calogero1]

Thanks very much for your responses.

Terry: after finding a few images of Jamie's elbow, it seems to me that mine is out that far. :/ However, I'd probably have to have some photos of my action taken in order to get an objective analysis of this. I might upload a few shots in the near future for such analysis.

Cheers.

[calogero1]

For anyone who's interested or may have this particular technical quirk themselves, I stumbled across a video that addresses it on Terry Griffiths' website. In a demo for his Snooker Lab software on this page, the narrator identifies a student as having his elbow pointing outwards. However, he supports what's been said in this thread, that it's not an issue in itself as long as a player can still cue straight (and, importantly, that the elbow doesn't then move in towards the body during delivery).

I found it interesting.

[nrage]

Neat... makes me want to buy a copy, though the purchase price is a little steep for what is not a particularly advanced piece of software. It makes me want to write one myself, being a software engineer. The problem is my spare time is limited. It does come packaged with footage from the professional players, which is probably worth quite a lot to players/coaches, so perhaps this alone justifies the price. However, it would be much better if they had a cheaper package which just included the software and some demo videos, and allowed you to purchase pro footage packs or similar as add-ons.

The free software Kinovea does almost as many things, however has the annoying feature of making the lines you draw vanish over time. It also doesn't have the silhouette feature. I wonder if it's open source.. maybe I can add my own features..

[CoachGavin]

Yeah, like you say I think the movies of top players is where it is ahead of other software. They actually got players in the matchroom and filmed them from all angles playing all types of shots. If I had thought of it at the time of my degree I might have tried something similar for my dissertation. Could be making a fortune now.lol

[Terry Davidson]

nrage:

If you ever do update Kinovea so those line will persist I would be REALLY interested in that. I can offer to compensate you something if you're willing to do it as I find the Dartfish just too damned user-unfriendly (and much too expensive at $4,500 or so)

Terry

[CoachGavin]

I would also be interested in a good version for coaching especially if there is a linux version

[snooks1000]

unless I'm mistaken, i used kinovea for the first time a few days ago and i managed to change the options on the straight line feature to allow a straight line to stay on screen...

[HUFRO]

Hi guys;

To show lines permanently in Kinovea, go to options-preferences-drawings-check "show drawings when video is playing", then go to "persistance" and move the ruler to the maximum(right side), check enable persistance and always visible, then save.
Let me know if it works.

Hufro

[nrage]

I'll have a look tonight, would you believe I didn't even look for a setting To be honest it didn't bother me too much as I was only really using it to zoom in and play back my own action, not to coach/show someone else. I think persistent lines are much more useful as a tool to show something to someone else.

[nrage]

Now.. if kinovea lets you play 2 videos, in sync, side by side, that would be a good feature. I was wondering to myself whether it was possible to detect and sync automatically.. or if you would have to require manual work. I thought it might be possible to detect the sound of the cue striking the white and sync from there outward.

[TomBombd]

Now.. if kinovea lets you play 2 videos, in sync, side by side, that would be a good feature. I was wondering to myself whether it was possible to detect and sync automatically.. or if you would have to require manual work. I thought it might be possible to detect the sound of the cue striking the white and sync from there outward.

I'd say you can do this with any (free) video editing tool. Just use a setting where you see a timeline of the frames and the sound. The sound of striking the cueball is obviously very different from everything else, so just drag & drop the videos to start at an equivalent point.

Might even be doable on Windows Movie Maker. Can't recall though.