arm moving in

[HUFRO]

Hi;

I taped myself to check my cue action and found out that my arm moves into my back at the delivery. I think it is after I hit the cue ball. I tried to twist my pelvis more , leaving more space for the follow through but It seems that I move my grip hand out of the vertical or move the elbow towards my back.

Here is the video I did to check the cue action.

Please, could any one advice what to do in order to maintain the arm in a vertical position through the delivery?

Thanks

Hufro


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnKsnNMXEwg

[Jaymo9]

Hi mate...just had a quick watch. Firstly....it shouldn't matter how you cue a ball as long as it is effective. What I have noticed is that your little finger on the grip hand becomes very loose on the feathering of the white...maybe you need to keep fingers more closely to to the cue to stop any deviation during contact. Also, you appear not to follow all the way through even when you are successful in making the pot. Therefore, try to keep your grip hand more "cupped" around the butt end but don't grip to tightly at the same time. Hope this helps.

[DandyA]

Hi HUFRO,

I am no coach so please feel free to take my comments with a pinch of salt or ignore them completely ...

I've watched your earlier vids and it's always seemed to me that your grip hand at the back of your backswing is a bit close to your body and moves to the right during delivery (probably cos it was too close in the first place) ... to my eye this video looks much better - you've got more clearance at the backswing and you're getting the cue through much straighter (no movement to the right) ...

I like it a lot more ... I suggest you think you are going to the left simply because you used to go noticeably right so straight seems left to you ... and you may be missing more (generally to the right) because your subconscious aiming was allowing for your previous left to right movement ...

So my advice would be to stick with your current action as shown in the video (it looks nice and straight) and I'm sure your subconscious will soon adjust it's aim ...

Once again, I'm not a coach so I might be talking a complete load of rubbish but it's how I see it and meant in good faith

[nrage]

I'm with DandyA on this one. Your action looks much better than previous videos, the grip looks nice and loose and there is much less tension. I did notice a slight tightening on one or two shots but most were good and loose. I would stick with it, as is, and instead concentrate on the front and rear pause, and where your eyes are focusing. I have found that once the cueing is correct, the only reason I miss is that I was not correctly focused on the back of ball contact point during my stroke.

[HUFRO]

thanks guys for your comments. I am also following the advice of jaymo9 on keeping my grip hand more "cupped" on the butt. It seems that gives me more stability. Also, I am working on remembering to twist my pelvis more to allow room for the cue movement.
I'll keep practicing this and also the two pauses at the front and at the back.

thanks again

Hufro

[TomBombd]

Hey!

Just out of pure interest, could you tape a video where the camera is directly behind your right arm? This I feel would better show the lateral movement. I'm talking about a video, in which your back covers like half of the screen (thus the cuearm about in the middle, and vertically as well). Just had a coaching session today (my first, yey!) and we did that. I think it very clearly showed the problems. The ones slightly from the side didn't just as much.

And now that I finally saw my cue-action today, I really need the feel to compliment your progress! Great stuff! Motivates me as well...

[HUFRO]

Hi nrage;

I have posted 2 new videos of my cue actio. One from behind and the other from one side.I still don't know what to do in order to have a straight delivery. Although I make the pots, my cue arm still goes to the right and then to the left hitting the chest. Perhaps I still have to switch my pelvis more to the left to leave more room for the cue?

I have been analizing the video with kinovea but I don't know how to correct that movement.

Thanks for your input

Hufro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4A7XFZzPpQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG746C4BzJk

[Terry Davidson]

HUFRO:

Dammit!!! With all the work you and I did here and you STILL aren't getting it. I'm a little disappointed so let's start over again as I noticed the following problems in your videos:

1. Your grip hand thumb is STILL WAY TOO CLOSE TO YOUR BODY!!! For goodness sakes get your hips over to the LEFT another 2-3 inches at least to allow for free and easy clearance for the cue when delivering. BEND THE LEFT LEG A LITTLE MORE WHICH WILL HELP CUE FAULT #2 BELOW TOO.

2. You are still not getting down low enough into the shot as the cue is running into your waist rather than the belt area or lower on the hip. Again, get down lower by bending the left leg more and swinging the hips more to the left.

3. THE WORST THING...YOU ARE STILL TURNING THE WRIST before YOU HIT THE CUEBALL. Remember, in your lesson we determined it was you bringing the back 3 fingers into the picture too early and this in turn was dragging the main knuckles of the hand down and thus also turning the wrist AND MOST IMPORTANTLY MOVE THE BUTT OF YOUR CUE SIDEWAYS.

Now, I thought you understood all this but you are going to have to break yourself of the habit of bringing those fingers onto the cue early and ending up turning the wrist at the time of strike. So, do the following...get to the Shopper's Drug Mart and get yourself one of those elastic wraps they use to wrap a sprained wrist or ankle. Take your back 3 fingers and wrap them together tightly so THEY CANNOT BEND AT ALL (you may even want to get some of the little metal splints to put inside the wrap to keep the fingers straight).

Now, when you try your long blue shot remember to HOLD (not grip) the cue with the FOREFINGER ONLY with the thumb holding the butt in the bed of the forefinger. The wrist should be cocked so that in the address position the back of your palm is just lightly on the butt of the cue. Now SLOWLY feather, do a front pause and a VERY SLOW BACKSWING (yours is still too fast for you as you aren't controling it and keeping it straight) the a slight REAR PAUSE and then deliver the cue.

What I'm trying to force you to do is stop the cue using the forefinger and thumb ONLY and only when the back of the thumb hits the chest and until that becomes natural to you you will have to use that elastic wrap to keep your back 3 fingers from clutching the cue too early and decelerating your cue and driving the butt off line with the wrist turning.

By the way, the butt of the cue should be resting on the middle pad and joint of the forefinger. That is the joint right behind the nail or the first joint and the pad right after that which is between the two finger joints.

The other thing you can experiment with is just wrapping the back TWO fingers and gripping the cue with the SECOND finger and having the forefinger just lightly touching the butt (this is what Ronnie does) and trying that and you may find it much more procudtive for you.

Otherwise, you might be making that long drive back out here and spending more of your hard-earned cash to get this conquered as you seem to be having a really hard time adopting the technique I taught you at our coaching session last time

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

HUFRO:

There is one more thing you can try by yourself before you go to the extreme of wrapping the back fingers.

Get on youtube and take a look at the grip used by both Mark Allen and Ryan Day, if you can see it. Notice that the main knuckles on their grip hand are (if you drew a line along them) pointed OUT from the butt at around a 30-45degree angle and they end up with just the tips of the back three fingers just touching the SIDE of the butt (more so in Allen's case as his baby finger never touches the cue).

For them this keeps them from tightening the back of the hand AT ALL during the delivery of the cue and they are using strictly the forefinger and thumb to stop the cue when the back of their grip thumb hits the chest.

I believe you will have to adopt this type of grip (or the wrapping of the back 3 fingers) for awhile until you can get the natural delivery where you do not tighten those back 3 fingers on the butt until WELL AFTER the cueball has been struck. This will prevent you from having the wrist turn in the delivery at all.

Best way to confirm this is to (I can't remember if you have an ash shaft on your cue, but if not make a pencil mark at the ferrule) have the arrows (or the mark) straight up in the address position and then when you finish your delivery see if they are still straight up since in your case right now they end up being at least a 1/4-turn to the right of vertical, which in turn shows you that the wrist and main knuckles of the grip are moving the butt sideways.

Terry

[nrage]

Get on youtube and take a look at the grip used by both Mark Allen and Ryan Day, if you can see it. Notice that the main knuckles on their grip hand are (if you drew a line along them) pointed OUT from the butt at around a 30-45degree angle and they end up with just the tips of the back three fingers just touching the SIDE of the butt (more so in Allen's case as his baby finger never touches the cue).

This is the grip I now use, it has helped me mostly solve the problem you're having .. I still have issues some days.

[Terry Davidson]

I've found I can use my normal grip with all 4 fingers on the butt however now I'm stopping the cue with my forefinger and thumb and I'm getting no twist at all on the cue and my long potting has improved. The trick is the back 3 fingers must be VERY loose on the butt, hardly touching at all.

I developed this and got it into my action by just potting the cueball into the 2 top pockets from the baulk line at various speeds, from dead weight to all the power I could muster. I did this for about 8 or 9 days in a row and now find the cue action has improved

Terry

[HUFRO]

Thanks guys for your advices,

Terry, I found that with the Marc allen grip I tend to hold the cue quite tight with forefinger and thumb, probably beacuse the angle of the hand also It seems that I cant control the cue straight. I will give a try of your grip, with the last 3 fingers almost not tuching the butt, It seems that gives you more assurance that you are holding the cue on his place.
I tried also to hold the cue in the bed of the forefinger and thumb just holding in in place but I dont feel the cue secure with that grip. I think I need to have the other fingers play a role touching the cue butt very lightly.

Hufro

[Terry Davidson]

HUFRO:

In order to get rid of your tendency to cue across the cueball with the butt going up and to the right you will have to find a method where you take those back three fingers out of the equation.

What you are doing is stopping the cue using the back of your hand and as you close the back 3 fingers you are lifting the butt of the cue with them and even worse is you are lifting the butt sideways a bit. You can control the cue using just the forefinger as many, many players do this and you shouldn't have to put a 'death grip' on the butt.

Perhaps my idea with the elastic wrap might be the only one that will work for you. You could also try tightly wrapping band aids around the middle knuckles of the back three fingers but they have to be tight enough to prevent you from being able to bend those fingers during the delivery.

Try just holding the cue in the bed of the forefinger, using no pressure on the thumb. Let the thumb hang straight down with the butt of the cue lightly touching the upper inside of the thumb at the web. Start out by trying this on very low power shots, like a pink off the spot or brown off the spot with pocket weight and then once you feel you are able to control the cue on the low power shots reasonably well then increase the power gradually.

Another idea...try shooting the spots, starting out with just enough power to have the cueball come back to the baulk line. Then try getting the cueball to the baulk cushion and back to the blue spot, then down to the top cushion for 3 lengths of the table and then finally try for 4 lengths of the table.

You can also try the exercise I did to get this right and keep the back 3 fingers out of the equation altogether and that is to take all 22 balls and one at a time place them anywhere on the baulk line and just shoot the cueball into one of the top pockets, starting out at pocket weight and gradually increasing the power. Repeat this daily before you start your warmup exercises for around 2 weeks and check and see first of all if the cue is finishing pointed at the edge of the leather (or whatever target you're using) and also, (VERY IMPORTANT) that you're stopping the cue using ONLY the forefinger and thumb.

If you can do this you should see with the forefinger and thumb stopping the cue that the back 3 fingers at the end of the delivery are just touching the butt of the cue.

If you cannot master this then we do have another solution. That is to grip the cue with the back 3 fingers ALL THE TIME so they are completely closed around the butt and gripping the cue in the address position. In order to keep them there you will have to shorten the backswing as you can't allow them to loosen their grip of the cue. This will mean the forefinger is released throughout the action, much like Ronnie's grip and also now Steve Davis' grip and the Alex Higgins grip. I don't recommend this but it might be the only way we can stop you from lifting the butt up and to the right. You won't be able to generate as much power but since you are not re-gripping the cue with the back 3 fingers there shouldn't be any lateral or vertical butt movement (Ronnie actually releases the back 2 fingers on his long backswings but he has mastered the art of re-gripping the cue without any butt movement off the plane of the cue. For us lesser mortals this is a very hard thing to achieve and the danger is decelerating the cue before time of strike).

With this grip the action that will stop the cue is the hand hitting the chest however remember you MUST NOT tighten those three fingers during the delivery. Start out with them fairly tight (I don't like this idea but I don't know of any other option to try and get you to the point where you can deliver the cue consistently straight).

My preference would be for you to work with the exercise of potting the cueball and concentrate on only holding the cue with the forefinger and also stopping the cue with JUST the forefinger and thumb. This method for sure will give you a straight cue delivery

Terry

[HUFRO]

Thanks Terry for your extense explanation,

I"ll try first just holding the cue with forefinger and thumb, potting long balls to the corner pockets. I will experiment also with holding with the last 3 fingers. One question, I was analizing my last video and It seems to me that that hand moving sideways and up is cause by a shoulder movement or elbow going to the left. Is that so or is caused as you said by the last 3 fingers?


Hufro

I'll keep you posted

[Terry Davidson]

HUFRO:

I decided to take another closer look at the last 2 video clips you posted and I think I now realize why you're having your problems with the up and right movement of the butt. Closing your back 3 fingers on the butt and pulling it up and to the right is not really what's happening.

Here is what I noticed this time:

1. In the side view video you will notice the butt of the cue is a good 3-4in above the cushion when in the address position.
2. In the rear view video you will notice your elbow hangs in towards the middle of your back a good 3in.
3. In the rear view video your cue is not only at your waist level but also much too close to your body.
4. In the rear view video the back of your palm is not on the cue at the address position (incorrect grip).
5. In the side view video the butt of the cue is actually coming DOWN during the delivery.

So, in order to get you on the correct path I think you need to do the following:

1. CORRECT THE GRIP...place the cue on the table and pick it up just as you would a hammer. Notice with a hammer grip you will automatically have the back of the palm against the butt of the cue and you will have to achieve this in the address position. Then as you feather, because of the changing angle of the forearm the back of the palm will rise off the cue and then return to it as you approach the cueball at the end of the feather, but in your case your palm stays up off the cue and this gives a space where in the delivery you use your back fingers to lift the cue into the raised palm and it should be the other way around with the back of the palm already on the cue. So do the violin exercise using a 'hammer' grip which is the correct configuration of the grip but of course much too tight. Remember the hold on the cue is with the forefinger only.

2. To get the hammer grip correct get the cue more towards your fingertips which should automatically cock the wrist outwards from your body. Do not use the thumb at all and leave it hanging straight down. In the violin exercise get your right elbow up as high as you can and then practice using just the forefinger as the hold on the cue to initiate the back and forth movement of the cue. (Try and duplicate as much as possible the actual set-up when doing the violin by getting the right elbow up HIGH.

3. You should get the butt of the cue to within ONE INCH of the cushion/rail in the address position, whereas right now you have around 4in. Do this by lowering your body down so your chest is actually resting on the cushion on a long blue shot.

4. The elbow hanging in is not such a big deal but you have to bend the left leg more and swing the hips to the left to get your body out of the way of the cue. The butt of the cue should be around the same level as your belt or in other words BELOW THE WAIST (where you have it right now).

5. You will have to work on first of all getting the grip correct with the back of the palm resting on the cue in the address position by moving the cue a little more towards your fingertips and forcing the wrist to cock outwards to enable you to do that. Try out that grip and see if it's exactly the same way you would hold a hammer to hit a nail. If it isn't, then you still have the wrong grip configuration.

6. Your feathers and backswing and delivery are at a good speed, however with these low power shots you were doing it didn't look to me as if you were 'driving' the cue all the way so the grip hand actually hits the chest. Try shots with a little more power (around medium pace).

7. Try the exercise of potting the long cueballs but start slow and build up the speed until at the end you are using the maximum power you can develop while still staying accurate. This is to get you to drive to the chest on all shots. Concentrate on trying to hit the pocket with the tip of the cue even though it's 9ft away.

Terry