Good tips to master the use of side spin??

[sootyvrs]

I used to play snooker many years back (20+) and played for many years back then and got to what I would call a reasonable standard. I used side only when I thought I had to but preferred mainly used centre striking to get position i.e. screw, top, stun etc...

All those years ago I never really put side spin shots into my practice routine (on my own) which thinking back now probably held me back in the day when I was really enthusiastic about the game.

I now play UK 8 ball pool and so far really enjoying the game and thinking that perhaps it's never too late to try and master the use of side to improve my overall game. I'm finding that on such a small table (compared to snooker) and so many obstacles (opponent balls) that pin point cue ball control is an absolute must to progress in the game.

I'm wanting to add some practice routines using side to try and understand cue ball deflection and also object ball throw effects with using side. There seems to be a mind field of pitfalls when using side e.g. type of cloth, distance between balls, how hard to hit the ball etc...

Just curious for those on here who use prolific use of side spin on the cue ball how you started to master the use of it. I would be interested if there are any good links or videos you have used to learn from.

I know most on here are snooker players rather than UK 8 ball players but I assume principles will be the same albeit having a smaller cue ball in pool

[nrage]

I am now, as you were then. I don't use side spin unless I have to, but I do plan to add it to practice at some stage - like when my basic center ball play reaches a decent standard.

If I were adding it to practice, here is how I would do it.

The general idea, as with any targetted practice routine, is to reduce the number of un-important variables, and focus on the ones you're training.

In this case we want to make aiming the pot as easy as possible, and we want to be able to easily see how well we potted the ball, and also how much side was added, and the effect it had.

So, set up a red on the blue spot to pot to the middle, place the white 1-2 ft back and at a 1/2 ball angle. This should be a very easy pot to aim because the cue line runs right along the edge of the object ball.

Play the shot center ball, with enough power to run into the 2nd cushion (top/bottom cushion). Place a red on that cushion where the white hit. This is your center ball measurement/marker.

Practice routine #1, basic. Using the above set up. Play the same pot with varying amounts of left and right hand side, ensure the OB is going into the heart of the pocket, watch how much cue ball deflection you get with varying amounts of side and varying amounts of power, start with soft shots, then add more power and see the difference. Ensure your added side had some effect, i.e. the white does not strike the red you left on the 2nd cushion - as this will indicate either you added no side, or you did not pot into the center, but the added side corrected the angle causing it to run into the red.

Practice routine #2, advanced. Using the same set up. Play the same pot, with maximum left and right hand side, and place reds at these 2nd cushion contact points. Now pick a spot on the 2nd cushion, inside this range (max left side to max right side) and try to hit that spot, keep playing the shot until you do, adjusting the side and/or power as required. Count how many shots it takes, and try to reduce that number down until you can get it first time, every time (the ultimate goal). Record your best, and try to beat it.

[ace man]

You simply judge different line of aim taking into account: speed of hit, cloth characteristic, offset from centre, possible cue elevation...etc...all of which contribute to amount of deflection or swerve if the shot is slow enough. But you already know this. Like centre ball striking, corrections while down on a shot is not recommended. It is a feel shot, requires a lot of practice and must become second nature, i.e. one must not think consciously "careful now, we'll apply left side 1.5 half tips off centre".

I started with US pool prior to snooker. Spin is used very often in that game and quickly becomes second nature. However, one can easily pick up some bad habits because of big pockets. Some of those players, even very good ones, have also some other methods of applying spin which require corrections while down on the shot, such as addressing centre ball and then pivoting the cue to left or right, even during cue delivery itself! Before you know it, subconsciously you start to copy that! Personally I'm not too fond of those methods even for US pool big pockets, let alone small rounded pockets of snooker tables.

[roykay]

Hello, learn to play billiards. You will need to master every kind of spin to make strokes and maintain position .You will aquire the skills
to play any cue sport.

Roy Bacon

[eaoin11]

I agree with what Roy has said, and find that drills to practise cannons are great. I just set up an easy 45 degree pot, mark the positions so I can play the same pot again and again, then try to cannon the white into other balls in various positions. This helped me to master stun, screw, top and side.

Some players I know in Brisbane have recently taken to a 'pool table' version of billiards to practise cueball control. You place the yellow on the center of the baulk line, red on the black spot and black in the center of the table. You get 5 points for potting the black, 2 for red, 1 for yellow and 1 for a cannon. All three balls are re-spotted. On every shot a ball must hit a rail or your break score goes back to zero (drives people insane). Recently they play it as a race to 100, but the last 10 points have to come from cannons and I think the very last point has to be a double on the black or sinilar. It's a lot of fun for larger groups as well, especially if everyone puts a bit of cash into it.

[sootyvrs]

Some great suggestions for me to try and always good to try different things in individual practice.

Billiards does seem a logical idea and also setting up a some set potting angles e.g. 3/4, 1/2 & 1/4 and vary the amounts of side but ensuring that potting the object ball is consistent until it becomes second nature.

Thanks all for all who have commented but would welcome any additional tips

[deant1982]

Elkmaster or Blue Diamond to get used to side spin, Kamui, Talisman Moori etc to master the use of it!

[thelongbomber]

Good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C_O8AO8yY

It's important to understand that each cue/shaft will have it's own deflection/squirt characteristics.

[sootyvrs]

Very interesting video. Didn't know that different cue/shaft can make such a difference!

I'd be interested in what makes a low deflection shaft as it doesn't cover that in the video? I assume it must be something to do with shaft stiffness.

[nrage]

Another good video on side/squirt/deflection/etc:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FargoBil...18/mXJ7bDafTms

.. as it turns out, deflection is caused by tip "end mass" .. or in other words how heavy the end of the cue is. This determines how much force is required to move it to the left/right, which in turn results in an "equal and opposite" force on the cue ball, causing the deflection.

The shaft stiffness, somewhat unexpectedly, does not have much (any?) effect. I don't know, but I suspect that this is because the tip is not moving very far, so not a lot of force is required to 'bend' even a stiff shaft that much, plus there is likely no 'spring back' effect from the bent shaft, because the white has moved forward of the shaft before that can take effect.

One thing I have noticed with some very light (also very cheap) shafts we have here at work for the pool table, is that you cannot use as much side with them, because they do not have enough end mass and simply get deflected themselves, causing a misscue.. so, too light will be as much problem as too heavy and there is likely a decent trade off somewhere in between.

[sootyvrs]

Thanks for that. Very educational how in US Pool sticks (cues) have taken the scientific approach to having cues which have low tip mass as in the Predator Series cues where they have drilled the tip end of the shaft to make it have less mass which in turn gives less deflection.

Not sure if this may have adverse effects doing other shots e.g. stun, screw, run through etc..

I'm perhaps a little surprised this technology is not used in snooker or UK Pool cues? Perhaps with a smaller tip as used snooker and in particular UK Pool makes it less effective or perhaps will weaken the shaft too much.

[ace man]

sootyvrs, I have a pool cue like that with a Z2 shaft. It does deflect the least according to testing with machinery, but I have tried also other so called low deflection shafts, OB series, McDermott...etc...which don't necessarily have a hollow front end, but they're all light at the top. They're all very consistent and feel to deflect the same.

You have to know that these shafts produce a bit more swerve on longer slower spin shots even with as parallel as possible cueing. So, you need to aim a bit 'thicker', esp. on typical 9ball cut shots with side and screw. These shafts are not for everyone and do not improve everyone's game. Many cannot get used to them.
Most of what is said about low deflection shafts is true, except that they help pots with unintentional side. That one is definitely not true. In fact, with unintentional side, those shafts can be worse than regular and detecting cueing problems can be harder. Actually, a bit better cueing is required.

As far as stun, screw, run through are concerned, nothing changes as those shots are shot on vertical axis.

To my knowledge Acuerate makes low deflection snooker cues. I haven't played with any so I cannot comment.

[nrage]

As far as stun, screw, run through are concerned, nothing changes as those shots are shot on vertical axis.

With the cheap, light tipped/ended pool cues I have here at work I've found that I cannot put as much top spin on, or get as low on a screw shot without a miscue. I suspect this may just be these rubbish cues, but I wonder if low deflection/lighter tipped/ended cues might suffer from a slight decrease in range at the extreme top/bottom due to their low mass.

[ace man]

...but I wonder if low deflection/lighter tipped/ended cues might suffer from a slight decrease in range at the extreme top/bottom due to their low mass.

Certainly not and I speak from experience. If that were true it would be very noticeable and nobody would play with those.

[thelongbomber]

I'm perhaps a little surprised this technology is not used in snooker or UK Pool cues? Perhaps with a smaller tip as used snooker and in particular UK Pool makes it less effective or perhaps will weaken the shaft too much.

Well mostly it's because snooker requires a great deal more touch, finer control and because a lot of your snooker game is meant to be played with stun/screw. Pool is a spin/side game and so layered tips, hollow tipped shafts, etc make the game easier to play. Balls are larger and heavier in pool and can accept more spin. In snooker, you end up playing with too much spin, and decelerating your cue action. Eventually it breaks down and becomes unreliable. I have played with a modified pool cue in snooker for a few months and it didn't do anything productive for my game.

IMHO, snooker is best played with a well balanced cue, a medium to hard "dead" tip so that you cue action creates spin, and not the cue or the tip. Cue action, and how much you accelerate through a cue ball is easier to control with a semi-stiff cue and less sensitive tip. Have a look at this for an example of a shot you could almost never play with the current line of Predator shaft or pool cue combinations (even one with a snooker size tip). See shots #1 and #3 from Ronnie at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Ajb6zMM_A

As an example, try taking a fairly narrorw/whippy cue and put a layered Moori or similar tip on it. You will find over the course of a few hours that your cueing will likely change significantly and you will be playing less stun/screw shots because you just can't reliable control the precise stun effect you need.

In future, you may see some butt technologies being used in snooker like this one: http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_p3_demo.php.

Kevin Deroo, a local cue maker, makes laminated ash shafts at the moment and some players do like them. In future, I would suggest that stiff laminated 3/4 maple shafts may enter the game of snooker at some point but I haven't seen anyone do that yet.