To all you coaches out there.........

[DWOT]

Please watch this and feel free to offer any advice! (I'm the one in the brown top)...

Cheers

Dwayne


http://www.livestream.com/nottingham...edium=ui-thumb

[jrc750]

Couple of nice in-offs lol, and dropping the cue ? whats that about eh
Bear in the corner ??

[cally]

Oh mate, where to start...................lol....

Terry and nrage will be along soon, it will be a long old post from nrage on this one...


Only in jest....lol...

[DandyA]

I watched it until I had to go out when it was 2-2 so I'm on tenterhooks - what was the result?

[jhr145]

Im no coach but stop holding the cue so far back try to have your cue arm vertical when you hit the cue ball thats the easiest thing to fix.

[nrage]

Ok... as usual I have plenty to say, perhaps too much?

As many have mentioned already your grip hand/forearm is not vertical when you strike the ball, this plus the fact that your elbow hangs a long way outside the line of the shot (and moves inwards during the shot) means that you're likely getting a fair bit of cue tip movement on most shots.

I think one reason for your grip and elbow position is the curve in your back. With a curved back, as you have when down on the shot, you effectively push the elbow back and out, and it's very hard (impossible?) to get a nice comfortable, straight, elbow position with a vertical forearm.

Your bridge length looks ok but may be a little on the short side perhaps.

Here are the things I would be looking to change in order of importance:

1. Back curve/position.
2. Grip position.
3. Elbow position.
4. Bridge length (in relation to grip).

So, if you like, here is what I would do.

1. First your back. At home, find a large mirror and a small flat surface at snooker table height. Set the mirror up on a 45 degree angle to straight, so you can see your back when down. Get down normally and note the curve in your back, while down try to straighten the back by bending a little more at the waist, engaging the abdominal muscles, pushing the chest out slightly and pulling the shoulder back slightly. Ignore the cue and arm/elbow position for the minute. Try and find a position which is both comfortable and has a back position which is as straight as possible. It will feel a little 'odd' but hopefully it's not outright uncomfortable. Memorise this, get up, get back down and straight into the new position. Repeat until you're confident you've got it. Take a break for 15 mins, come back and get straight down into the new position, repeat until it's correct. Take another break, repeat this process as you remember during a day or so, until you can next get down to the club.

2, 3, and 4. Grip, elbow, and bridge. Go down to your local club, and take with you some tape (electrical, or similar. It should be the sort which is easily removed even after several months without leaving a residue on the cue), and a coin (optional).

First, lets pick a bridge length. The recommended length is 8 - 12 inches. I recommend starting with 10 to 10.5 inches. To find this; place the white on the brown spot and place your bridge hand on the table so that the V, where the cue rests, is directly above the line of the D.

As the radius of the D is 11.6 inches, and the ball is 2 1/15th of an inch, you can move the white forward or back to find any desired bridge length, with it on the spot you have approximately 10.5 inches. Alternately you can simply measure 10.5 inches from the cue tip.

When I was learning this bridge length I placed a small square of tape on the top of the cue at this position (above the V). I played all my shots with this square on top (so it did not rub on my bridge hand) and used it to verify I had my bridge length correct. You can also use a pencil mark, but if you've a nice cue you might prefer the tape.

Not all shots will use this bridge length, but with the square you can see how much longer or shorter you are and use this to adjust the grip hand by the same amount, to achieve the same overall position on every shot. All that changes then is the feeling/balance of the cue, which you just have to get used to and learn to play various shots with.

So, back to it. Cut a length of tape off, that will go around the butt/grip of the cue at least once, keep this to the side and get down on the shot with a nice straight back, the bridge V on the D as described and the cue as level as possible. Use a loop bridge (google for a picture) so you can hold the cue in position with just your bridge hand. Now slide the grip hand up the cue until your forearm is vertical. Keeping the grip hand in place stand back up and get your tape. Place it around the cue either just in front of the forefinger and thumb, or under the forefinger and thumb, whichever you think will be more comfortable for you.

With your grip hand in position get back down on the shot, straight back, bridge on D, cue level, grip on/next to tape and double check your forearm is vertical. This is your default position for all shots where you can get your hand on the table, and the position you're trying to achieve for all those tricky shots. If you have to shorten your bridge, you move the grip hand up the cue by the same amount. If you have to lengthen the bridge you move the grip hand down the cue, and onto your mini-butt or extension as needed.

And that's it.. it will likely feel odd and you might either find it helps immediately or you will find it 'ruins' your game. But, stick with it. The reason being that this set up, once you get used to it, will give you a more stable, more consistent, more versatile platform to build from, meaning that with this set up you will be able to achieve a higher level of skill than if you continue on with a non-standard set up. Changing anything, like this, will likely be a step backward initially but I'm confident it will eventually be several steps forward. It will take some willpower, patience and dedication to stop yourself slipping back to old habits, but the less you do that the quicker you will adapt to it.

Best of luck.

[DWOT]

Couple of nice in-offs lol, and dropping the cue ? whats that about eh
Bear in the corner ??

Yer, those inoffs cost me the frame and match effectively, that and the black that I still don't know how it didn't go in just after my nice 25 break as he made a few after that as I left him well in.... Was good experience though all the same playinmg a match knowing full well you have people watching you over the net. I lost 4-2 btw

[DWOT]

Ok... as usual I have plenty to say, perhaps too much?

As many have mentioned already your grip hand/forearm is not vertical when you strike the ball, this plus the fact that your elbow hangs a long way outside the line of the shot (and moves inwards during the shot) means that you're likely getting a fair bit of cue tip movement on most shots.

I think one reason for your grip and elbow position is the curve in your back. With a curved back, as you have when down on the shot, you effectively push the elbow back and out, and it's very hard (impossible?) to get a nice comfortable, straight, elbow position with a vertical forearm.

Your bridge length looks ok but may be a little on the short side perhaps.

Here are the things I would be looking to change in order of importance:

1. Back curve/position.
2. Grip position.
3. Elbow position.
4. Bridge length (in relation to grip).

So, if you like, here is what I would do.

1. First your back. At home, find a large mirror and a small flat surface at snooker table height. Set the mirror up on a 45 degree angle to straight, so you can see your back when down. Get down normally and note the curve in your back, while down try to straighten the back by bending a little more at the waist, engaging the abdominal muscles, pushing the chest out slightly and pulling the shoulder back slightly. Ignore the cue and arm/elbow position for the minute. Try and find a position which is both comfortable and has a back position which is as straight as possible. It will feel a little 'odd' but hopefully it's not outright uncomfortable. Memorise this, get up, get back down and straight into the new position. Repeat until you're confident you've got it. Take a break for 15 mins, come back and get straight down into the new position, repeat until it's correct. Take another break, repeat this process as you remember during a day or so, until you can next get down to the club.

2, 3, and 4. Grip, elbow, and bridge. Go down to your local club, and take with you some tape (electrical, or similar. It should be the sort which is easily removed even after several months without leaving a residue on the cue), and a coin (optional).

First, lets pick a bridge length. The recommended length is 8 - 12 inches. I recommend starting with 10 to 10.5 inches. To find this; place the white on the brown spot and place your bridge hand on the table so that the V, where the cue rests, is directly above the line of the D.

As the radius of the D is 11.6 inches, and the ball is 2 1/15th of an inch, you can move the white forward or back to find any desired bridge length, with it on the spot you have approximately 10.5 inches. Alternately you can simply measure 10.5 inches from the cue tip.

When I was learning this bridge length I placed a small square of tape on the top of the cue at this position (above the V). I played all my shots with this square on top (so it did not rub on my bridge hand) and used it to verify I had my bridge length correct. You can also use a pencil mark, but if you've a nice cue you might prefer the tape.

Not all shots will use this bridge length, but with the square you can see how much longer or shorter you are and use this to adjust the grip hand by the same amount, to achieve the same overall position on every shot. All that changes then is the feeling/balance of the cue, which you just have to get used to and learn to play various shots with.

So, back to it. Cut a length of tape off, that will go around the butt/grip of the cue at least once, keep this to the side and get down on the shot with a nice straight back, the bridge V on the D as described and the cue as level as possible. Use a loop bridge (google for a picture) so you can hold the cue in position with just your bridge hand. Now slide the grip hand up the cue until your forearm is vertical. Keeping the grip hand in place stand back up and get your tape. Place it around the cue either just in front of the forefinger and thumb, or under the forefinger and thumb, whichever you think will be more comfortable for you.

With your grip hand in position get back down on the shot, straight back, bridge on D, cue level, grip on/next to tape and double check your forearm is vertical. This is your default position for all shots where you can get your hand on the table, and the position you're trying to achieve for all those tricky shots. If you have to shorten your bridge, you move the grip hand up the cue by the same amount. If you have to lengthen the bridge you move the grip hand down the cue, and onto your mini-butt or extension as needed.

And that's it.. it will likely feel odd and you might either find it helps immediately or you will find it 'ruins' your game. But, stick with it. The reason being that this set up, once you get used to it, will give you a more stable, more consistent, more versatile platform to build from, meaning that with this set up you will be able to achieve a higher level of skill than if you continue on with a non-standard set up. Changing anything, like this, will likely be a step backward initially but I'm confident it will eventually be several steps forward. It will take some willpower, patience and dedication to stop yourself slipping back to old habits, but the less you do that the quicker you will adapt to it.

Best of luck.

LOL, I did ask!!!!!!!

I'll read through all that later as I have to go and do some work..... Cheers

[nrage]

Yer, those inoffs cost me the frame and match effectively, that and the black that I still don't know how it didn't go in just after my nice 25 break as he made a few after that as I left him well in.... Was good experience though all the same playinmg a match knowing full well you have people watching you over the net. I lost 4-2 btw

Did you adjust your grip hand position for that black? Because the bridge length was very short.

[DWOT]

Did you adjust your grip hand position for that black? Because the bridge length was very short.

I have absolutely no idea at all.........

Might be part of my problem in that I know full well for some shots I've no real idea as to where my hand/grip should be, other than I know from experience to shorten my grip when playing from the cushion...

Right, must head off an do some work and I can read all this later, all adice much appreciated and I'm a lazy so and so who really should have read more in this section of the Forum.....

[nrage]

I take some of my comments back, there is a shot at 19:33 where we get a really good look at your cue action from directly behind and your elbow does not appear to move in/out on this shot. So, the Q is how consistent are you with this, and is it worth making a the changes I mentioned. I think it is, because I think making the change to the back and forearm will help your game, and once you change these you may find your elbow position changes naturally. So, perhaps just start with the back and grip/forearm and get used to that, then see where you're at. Changing too many things at once may be too much to manage in any case.

[Terry Davidson]

I watched about 10 minutes since I don't have a lot of time this morning and would offer the following (nrage has it mostly right anyway):
1. Grip hand too far back on the cue.
2. Grip needs changing to a loose 'hammer' grip once you get the grip arm forearm vertical.
3. 10.5" is about correct for your height, back of cueball to 'V' of bridge.
4. Because you have your grip so far back on the cue you do not 'drive' the grip hand through to the chest, but correct the grip hand first.
5. Straighten the bridge arm a little bit and form a more solid bridge.
6. Because of the other faults you have head movement on the shot.
7. Slow down a bit AND for goodness sakes DO NOT CHANGE YOUR MIND WHEN YOU'RE DOWN ON THE SHOT!
8. The rest should be used low side X, not high side (should have played for a blue on that shot, not a green in the middle!
9. I couldn't tell too well but I think your left foot is not directly under the grip hand which in your case would be wrong anyway, but get the grip hand correct and make sure the left foot is directly underneath it once you have it correct.

To get this right here is what you should do: Make a light pencil mark 10" or so from the tip of your cue or even a chalk mark but something you can easily rub off. Get down in the address position, have about a 10-degree bend in your bridge arm and get the mark on the 'V' of the bridge. Now get a friend to place your grip hand so the forearm is vertical and put some electrical tape on the butt just in front of the grip hand. With this set-up now ensure your LEFT FOOT (the laces or arch) is directly underneath the grip hand and on the line of aim of the cue. Your right foot should ideally be parallel with the left or even slightly in front of it, whatever is comfortable for you.

Place the cueball on the brown spot and then get down into your new stance and set-up and cue the ball up and down the spots and see if you're anywhere near straight. (Probably not since your grip is not very good either).

The GRIP is the most important thing here and it's what you control the cue with. Place your cue on the bed of the table and pick it up like it was a hammer and you were going to hit someone over the head with it. Now, KEEPING THE GRIP IN THE SAME CONFIGURATION loosen it until you can EASILY slide the cue back and forth inside the grip with your right hand. This grip pressure should remain contant throughout the shot until the hand hits the chest. DO NOT TIGHTEN THE GRIP UNTIL THE HAND HITS THE CHEST!

OK, that's enuff for now...work on it

Terry

[DWOT]

Bugger, what have I done to myself!!!!!

Only joking, will look into some of these potential issues in due course!

p.s. I'm a lefty Terry! ;-)

[Terry Davidson]

DWOT:

OK, your 'lefty' comment made me go back and check my post to see if I screwed up and reversed the left/right, but I don't think I did. The LEFT foot should be directly under your grip hand which is your LEFT hand and the LEFT forearm should be vertical in the address position. Your RIGHT foot should be either parallel or slightly ahead of the straight LEFT leg and around one shoulder width between the heels (I must admit I didn't see much of your stance in the video I watched).

Before you drop down into the shot and after you've selected your cue line of aim, twist your hips to the R|IGHT by bending your RIGHT leg while still standing up behind the shot and drop your RIGHT bridge hand on the table behind the cueball. Have the bridge RIGHT arm almost straight with maybe a 10-degree or so bend in it and have some weight on the RIGHT forearm and base of bridge. Form a solid 'V' with the RIGHT bridge hand and also ensure the cue is not running against the 'thumb pillow' formed by the skin between thumb and forefinger. Do this by ensuring the wrist is straight from the forearm so you can see the second joint of the index finger past the thumb.

As the grip is (to my mind) one of the most glaring issues I noticed, remember the 'hold' on the cue is primarily with the top of the forefinger and thumb. This is the 'ideal' grip but every player has their own form and as long as it's loose and STAYS LOOSE until after the cueball is hit you should be OK. There should be some kind of cock of the grip LEFT wrist away from the body and the severity of the wrist cock is determined by your own individual physique, however yours appears to be cocked the other way (into your body a bit) which takes the butt of the cue well away from the long straight bone in the LEFT forearm which is actually driving the cue.

Terry

[snookergr]

Ok... as usual I have plenty to say, perhaps too much?

.....

1. First your back. At home, find a large mirror and a small flat surface at snooker table height. Set the mirror up on a 45 degree angle to straight, so you can see your back when down. Get down normally and note the curve in your back, while down try to straighten the back by bending a little more at the waist, engaging the abdominal muscles, pushing the chest out slightly and pulling the shoulder back slightly. Ignore the cue and arm/elbow position for the minute. Try and find a position which is both comfortable and has a back position which is as straight as possible. It will feel a little 'odd' but hopefully it's not outright uncomfortable. Memorise this, get up, get back down and straight into the new position. Repeat until you're confident you've got it. Take a break for 15 mins, come back and get straight down into the new position, repeat until it's correct. Take another break, repeat this process as you remember during a day or so, until you can next get down to the club.

.....
Best of luck.

nrage: do you mean that a player's back should be ideally flat straight parallel to the table ? this seems to contradict the fact that lifting your right shoulder (if right handed) helps a lot to bring the cue under the chin and closer to the chest and also align the cue to the dominant eye, this will mean that the back as such will not be parallel to the table. Almost every pro I watched on TV does not seem to have a very straight back except from those who have their shoulders roughly on the same level, something which is not ideal, at least from my point of view. what do you think ? thanks