Snooker advice

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, I haven't played for about 5 years, but just got my table up and I've identified a few problems with my action, and would appreciate any help to fix them.

I've been trying a few things in the last week and its making things difficult.

Stance #1 which is in the video, simply is a comfortable stance.
Stance #2 I have my left leg out further and turn the body more into the line. I'm not sure which way to go here.

I can never seem to sight up right, nearly every shot I miss goes to the inside. I can't work out where I should sight up right side/left side centre? I think it has something to do with my cueing arm leaning in toward my body. so on the forward stroke I'm off. Some days I seem to be ok, others totally off.

When I looked at some close up videos, I noticed every time my cueing arm would shank outwards, and the cue strike the ball to the left. I fixed it by deliberately pulling my arm inwards at the strike. But noticed I was only putting a heap of side on the ball. Even when I'm looking directly at the cueball, I can't stop my arm from shanking out.

My First Youtube video is a bit screwed up, I'm trying to find the tape again so I can reencode it , but It gives some idea of where I'm at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqmDrjgmhAM

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Thought I might tape and slow down a shot so its easy to see what I'm doing.

Basically over the last few weeks I've worked hard on my stance, and its fairly stable. And also just worked on my line of aim. Turns out I was actually hitting across the ball, which I noticed in my early footage. I've modified my action simply by bringing the cue over to the right side of my chin, when I'm left handed its the same, on the right side. Since I've done this my accuracy has improved greatly.

Only problem is, I can't work out why I shank the cue arm (AFTER) contact with the cue ball. I'm glad Its after, but does result in unwanted side. In the footage you can see its clearly after I strike the cueball that the arm goes outwards. I've tried grossely exagerating bringing my arm inwards, but to no avail. The only way I've ever been able to stop it was to deliberately roll the wrist inwards after the shot, but it felt very strange. I'm convinced its due to the positioning of the shoulder and the slight drop of my elbow.

Although I can't stop the shanking of the wrist, I have noticed I can still pull my arm inwards and at least minimize the side transmitted and end up with the cue on the target. I know I'm not alone on this, I've seen heaps of players with exactly the same problem. But I do see people online who have a flawless stroke.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[JasonHB]

I personally think that it is one of the same problems that I had until I went to see Del Hill. If Terry comes along" I am sure that he will correct me if I am wrong.

It appears as the "shank" as you call it is a result of your hand and lower arm hitting your chest which forces it out. Effectively, your body is getting in the way of your follow through and your arm has to go to the right to "go around" to allow the cue to go through.

If you did not have this shank, you would be what Del calls a pecker.

Del's solution for me was to have the cue rubbing my chest much higher, almost up towards my armpit rather than just below your chest area (as yours appears to be in the video).

This prevents the hand hitting the body and also allows the arm to drop through the shot as you follow through which creates the drive.

I am not sure if I have explained this very well, but please ask if you have any more questions.

Jason

[nrage]

I agree with Jason's diagnosis of what is going on. The hand appears to be pushed out by contact with your chest. As the movement is after contact with the white it's not 'technically' a problem, however if/when you play a stroke where you have a long bridge, and your grip forearm is therefore forward of vertical, the movement will occur earlier in the stroke and become a problem. So, if you can get rid of it, that would be ideal.

Jason's suggestion of moving the cue contact point up, outside the chest is one option. This moves the entire cueing arm out to the right (right-handed), and given your preferred chin position for the cue being on the right (right-handed) then I think this is a change you could make. However, this is a massive change for anyone with an established cue action, so expect everything to "fall to pieces" while you adjust to it.

If you're anything like me, and not very flexible across the chest and shoulders, then you may find it hard to get into this position. If that is the case, look to adjust your stance slightly. I have found that widening the stance allows more of a hip twist and this angles the body across the line more, giving me more range of motion in the shoulder and allowing me to get into the desired position.

Another change you can make is to raise the body just slightly. This will mean you are able to get the cue in the desired position on the chest, without needing as much flexibility in the shoulder. There is a penalty to raising the body however, and that is that your cue angle with raise along with it, especially when playing with screw. You may find you have less cue power as a result of this change, so use it as a last resort.

The thing to watch as you do all this, is that you do not develop an early elbow drop. I have one, which crops up fairly frequently and I believe it is due to my inflexibility in the shoulder, forcing the drop, because it has no other way to continue the cue action. If this happens you can shift the grip hand back a fingers width and/or raise the body slightly.

Like I said earlier, a change of this type will affect all areas of your game, your stance, body position (and therefore sighting), action etc. So, it's not something you're going to be able to effect immediately, but if you really work at it then hopefully you will have a nice straight cue action by the end of it.

Also, if possible, find a coach to help with this process.. as you really need someone external to see what is happening in real time and adjust. That's the one downside to filming yourself, you cannot see it as it happens, so cannot make adjustments as you go. Instead you have to watch later and make notes about what to try, and then you have to watch that later to see if you managed to implement them, or not. If you can, mount a mirror or two around your playing area (it looks like your own table?)

Best of luck!

[Terry Davidson]

I have to agree with the comments made here by Jason and nrage. I believe Jason has identified the correct solution for you in that your cue is way to far 'into' your body and the way to correct htat is given by nrage and that is to make your stance a bit wide (at least one shoulder width between the heels of the feet) but ALSO square off your stance (get the feet more parallel so the toes are either 90degrees to the line of aim or near that) and this will force you to twist the hips more which will get the cue more underneath the armpit and that should stop the hand from trying to move around the body.

Terry

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Thanks guys, I'll give it a go. I have actually tried the full twist, and do know what it feels like. I stopped doing it to try something (my curent stance more comfortable.

ATM I'm lining my right leg straigt ahead, left goes out about shoulder width. (Steve Davis) I'm a bit of a mess atm anyway. I play ok on my home table, then I go to club table and its about an inch higher, and I'm all messed up. So it won't be too hard to give it a go.

I've got all day to practice tomorrow, so I'll try it out then. I think it might also explain why I've been missing the long shots extremely bad, long bridging shots, and tight shots.

Again thanks guys, much appreciated

[Terry Davidson]

rjcm:

Just one point. When you square off your stance DO NOT point the right foot straight down the line of aim. It should be pointed at some angle out to the right (for right-handers) to take the strain off the knee joint and it will make the stance more stable.

To prove this to yourself, stand erect at the table right behind the brown spot and with your feet about one shoulder width apart and the belly button pointed directly at the brown/blue/pink/black spots. Now look down at your feet and line them up exactly parallel to the line of the spots then lift your head and shut your eyes and you should find you can feel some strain in the knees and calf muscles.

Still with your eyes closed and standing up, try pointing both toes outwards from the line of the spots until you find the most comfortable spot (so first try pointing them IN with the eyes closed which is very uncomfortable and pigeon-toed and then shift them in stages to the maximum you can point them out, then adjust them back to where you feel the most comfortable). You should find both feet are most comfortable when pointing out somewhere around 20-30degrees and that is what you should do with the snooker stance. You will also find a lot less strain on the knee joints and calf muscles.

If, like me, you have slightly flat feet (from my military service) you may want to point them out a little more until everything is comfortable and stable. After all, almost everyone when standing or walking comfortably will have the toes pointed out a bit. Why change that for snooker?

Also, to get your cue in the right spot on the chest it should run about 2in above and to the right a little bit of the right nipple, basically just on the edge of the pectoral muscle and almost under the armpit. This may effect the position of your right elbow a bit but don't be overly concerned with that as Higgins and Hendry play with the elbow inside the cue and Williams plays with it well outside and they don't seem to have any problems delivering the cue straight (most of the time anyway). You could also have a look at Shaun Murphy who has his elbow dropping into his back a bit at the end of the delivery, especially with a power stroke.

Terry

[nrage]

ATM I'm lining my right leg straigt ahead, left goes out about shoulder width. (Steve Davis) I'm a bit of a mess atm anyway. I play ok on my home table, then I go to club table and its about an inch higher, and I'm all messed up. So it won't be too hard to give it a go.

That's an interesting comment. I found recently that my stance is much better, my elbow straighter, and my cue action without as much of a wobble on the pool table here at work, which is at least 1 inch lower. On a higher surface I found my shoulders on more of an angle and my grip arm pushed up and over my back more, creating a whole host of problems. If you can, get a camera on your position at the club, even if it's just a still shot of you down in address.

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Just tried out the action, and I didn't notice much change, some but not really noticable. Perhaps I don't have the same problem as mentioned earlier. It seems to kick out more when I strike it harder. Might have to get some lessons for this one maybe. Might try a few other things too.

Might have to check it out again, Just had a nother look at the video and clearly my arm DOES hit my side and force it out. Could it be that I've gotten used to my arm kicking out, and doing it instinctively or perhaps I was doing it wrong?

[nrage]

Just tried out the action, and I didn't notice much change, some but not really noticable. Perhaps I don't have the same problem as mentioned earlier. It seems to kick out more when I strike it harder. Might have to get some lessons for this one maybe. Might try a few other things too.

Might have to check it out again, Just had a nother look at the video and clearly my arm DOES hit my side and force it out. Could it be that I've gotten used to my arm kicking out, and doing it instinctively or perhaps I was doing it wrong?

It may be the kick out is in part due to hitting the chest and in part now subconscious as you know you're going to hit the chest. If the hand is moving of it's own accord before actual contact with the chest then it's a problem, if not, not .. I would suggest.

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Just realized it can not ever be before contact, because I've already set up to the cueball or near abouts. So My cue has to get there in a straight line. I might give it another try. I agree I think its on a subconscious level. I have to train my arm to know the new line of follow through.

[CoachGavin]

Personally I think it starts going slightly sidewards on the start of the delivery. Watch the slow motion and it just seems to go slightly out and then obviously goes right out by the end of the delivery. Just my opinion and I am sure you have watched it more times than me )

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

I've retried, and recorded, front on and side on. I can't se a reason to stop the arm hitting my chest. I've gone completely sideways, turned as much as possible, and it still hits the chest and follows outwards. I've tested the distance after striking the cueball, and its about 1.5 ball lengths followthrough before it kicks out. Nothing I do seems to change this. What I'm thinking of doing, Is living with it, but trying to straighten up with the followthrough.

[Terry Davidson]

A couple of items I noticed. The first is you don't feather at all except the once when at the end you got out of position. 2-3 feathers may help you get better rhythm and timing.

Second point is you are over an inch from the cueball in the address position and this extra length is subtracted right from the amount of follow-through you normally get. It will also mean you will be gripping the cue one inch further back. Try and get the tip to within 1/4" when in the address position.

I also think I saw some forward head movement, the head going back on the backswing and then coming forward a bit on the delivery. Not sure what this is about

Terry

[Rjcmcmlxxix]

Thanks again Terry. The video I linked on here was my first week back at snooker from a lengthy break. I'm not sure if you saw any of my other videos, but theres a small improvement over time with my other breaks.

With the feathering, I decided not to do it while I was trying to improve my game. I'm notorious for overthinking everything and it kills me. Hence why I try to be as quick as I can. You see in all of my videos however, if I feel out, I stand up and start again. I try to aim right first time. Make sure I'm centre, and follow through. I think my forward shots for some reason are more carefully made than the stuns however. If I'm on the rail I definitely feather. I guess it kills me to spend too much time on a shot. But I can definitely see the reason why I would be better of feathering. I will keep this for future reference when I sort out some other things.

Over the last month or two, I've really improved my stance. I'm a lot more stable. I try not to move. I'm looking at improving my upperbody movement now that I think Ive got the lower body sorted. I need to also keep my head down until Ive completed the shot.

I think my action is heaps better than when I first started in the first video. I have changed things for the better tonight after watching the Del Hill videos. I was strugling to find any consistency with aiming, some days on some off, some I'm not even sure how to sight. But finally some consistency. Still finding it hard though to make sure I bring the chest to cue. often when I get down, I slightly pull the cue toward my body. But when I do it right the consistency is excellent. I'm still at a loss though with the real long shots using this method. I can be on, and I can miss by 30 Degrees at some times. Say bulk to pink length shot.

I can't believe I didn't realise the driving force from two points. I've always delivered my power souly from the follow through. He had an excellent way of describing it. Two things I've taken on board and seen massive potential for improvemnt.

Again thanks for the advice. If you get a chance have a look at my latest 61 break. Its improved but still no feathering. I'll be sure to give it a try and spend a little bit more time on my shots.