Opening Hand

[snookergr]

Hi limecc:
Thank you for clarifying.
I couldn't agree more with regards to consistency.
I also read from Terry that the front pause is now considered as the most important pause in the action.
In my action the opening of the hand is now almost unconsciously happening. I always seemed to do it alright with no tension.
However, during a full backswing, I always used to remove the little finger completely out of the cue and the third finger was barely touching it also.
Therefore a few years ago (4-5 maybe) I worked on keeping all fingers in touch with the cue at all times; as you have greater control of the cue that way. So I ended up practising a few hours every day keeping my mind on what my 3rd and little fingers were doing :-D
So I was using a 'dummie' too but I didn't now it :-D
I guess different players find different aspects of the action difficult to incorporate. For example -among others- I am still working on keeping my chin on the cue at all times but I am not consistent just yet :-) and I am not young either :-).
As Terry has mentioned a lot of times, one should practise one thing at a time (at a session I guess).
I also read that Tiger Woods was practising one thing at a time in order to incorporate good habits in his action.
All the best,
Dimitris

[Terry Davidson]

limecc:

If you are having difficulty releasing the hand at the end of the backswing it might be that you are going at it the wrong way and conciously trying to release the back 3 fingers. This is just more mental effort on the 'noise' side and releasing the back 3 fingers should happen AUTOMATICALLY if your grip is the correct (LOOSE) pressure.

What actually happens is the butt of the cue literally 'pushes' the back 3 fingers out since in respect to the back of the hand the butt of the cue is naturally going down or I guess better said would be AWAY from the back of the palm (not in space, just in relation to the back of the palm).

As snookergr says, the fingers should remain in contact with the butt with the baby finger tip just touching, the next finger would be the first pad and the longest finger (3rd from back) would be at the first joint and you're left with only the top of the forefinger (the innermost pad) and the inside of the thumb actually 'holding' the cue (I don't like the term 'grip' as to some people it means something tight and it must not be tight).

Terry

[tommygunner1309]

Check out Del Hill's explanation (0.41 min) where he explains to Cazmac that this is another 'dummy' and it's this and the backswing length that generates the power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACqpu...f=mfu_in_order

In Part 4 he gets into more detail about the grip and 'engines'.
In Part 2 Del is at odds with Terry's advice that the grip hand should hit the chest (see also Part 4, 7.13). This is a Peter Ebdon 'Peck' where it's best to be a 'driver' and accelerate through the white dropping the elbow. He's also at odds with Nrage's comment that the cue should be level throughout the stroke and has memorised the words 'down' and 'up' in several languages because this is impossible (Part 4, 4.35).

There is no doubting Del Hill is one of the finest coaches around, and I would never get into an argument with him - but for me, his system doesn't work. PLEASE NOTE - I said "for me"
I am with Terry on this and Nrage. I find my potting rate is far better if i loosen the grip on the backswing (3 fingers) and push my fist through to my chest, which arrives just below and to the right of my nipple. (Right hander.) The cue comes through parallel which is what I am trying to achieve. Nowadays, my line of sight is not as good as it once was, and if I miss an average pot, I find it is because I have lined the shot up wrong or failed to hit centre object ball on a straight shot. But generally I find that I have about 85% better success rate with loose grip, fist to chest, keeping a parallel cue.

Of course, it doesnt work for everyone. In fact I am coaching a couple of mates who have completely different stances. One looks awkward and the left foot too close to the right, but he gets the right results. His mate is more conventional with a square on, shoulder width stance.

When I came away from my coaching course, I remember Steve Davis saying "remember, there isn't one routine for everybody. You need to find the routine that they perform best with". I think that says it all.

Tom

[Terry Davidson]

I have to agree with tommy here. I don't agree with Del's use of letting the butt rise and then fall again in the delivery since this would be one more item a player would have to time and coordinate perfectly in order to hit the correct spot (height-wise) on the cueball since the cue would actually be 'scooping' into the white.

On another point...I'm not certain what Del said on this one but dropping the elbow on the delivery does not prevent one from driving the grip hand through to the chest. I advocate driving the grip hand through to the chest on EVERY shot just to ensure the player is not 'clutching' the cue, or in other words decelerating through the cueball.

I myself drop my elbow on any pot over medium pace but the back of my thimb on my grip hand still drives into the chest but it would be a little further into the chest than if I hadn't dropped the elbow.

Also, something on the rear pause. I'm now conviced (because I don't have a rear pause anyone can see) that the rear pause has one more purpose that isn't talked about much, and that is it helps the player to accelerate through the cueball and beyond and does help prevent 'clutching' the cue and decelerating. I play without a rear pause and have very recently discovered when under pressure in a match I do tend to decelerate and it causes me to play like an absolute putz!

So my theory is if a player doesn't have a discernible rear pause then that player or his coach had better absolutely insure he is still accelerating through and beyond the cueball. Just improving this one item has really helped my potting, especially my long potting however it is causing me some problems with spin, (especially screw) as when I do accelerate through the cueball well I'm getting somewhere around twice the power I used to get.

In Del Hill's terminology I must have been a 'pecker' rather than a 'driver' and I have to admit I like being a driver better and dropping that elbow and accelerating the cue all the way to where the grip hand hits the chest.

Terry

[nrage]

My take on what Del says on Caz's videos is that the butt does fall, but only after contact with the white. At (Part 4, 5:20) he says "look at the natural slope" then "we're going to follow that slope, it gets to there and then we want to come down". The "it gets to there" is said when/after the tip strikes the white (I believe). So, all he is actually talking about is dropping the elbow/grip after contact. Also, he is stating that it drops until the cue is level (with the table) and not lower.

I wonder if he advocates the drop on lower power shots, or not. I can see why you might, for consistency of action - to train just 1 action/motion and get it perfect, but also why you might not, to reduce excess motion and the chance of dropping early etc.

[limecc]

limecc:
Terry

Thanks Terry, Nrage,
I only get let out once a week so I'll let you know how the grip goes when I can.

I'm not sure I agree about the hand hitting the chest though. When I'm playing bad and 'pecking' I have been known to hit myself hard enough to hurt. When I'm playing well the elbow drops and I don't recall hitting myself anywhere and I can easily exaggerate the follow through if I wanted.

I too have eliminated the rear pause because it made me stab at the ball and also resulted in body movement on power shots I just couldn't stop. I try to think of the movement like a connecting rod between the wheels on an old steam engine so no pausing at the back on delivery, just a slow change of direction and accelerate through the white. He might not be a top pro, but Snookergr's delivery is perfect I think. Great to learn from. Likewise I had a professional mate Tony Jones before we lost touch. Although he played with an extremely short cue check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AO9RuSikko

[CoachGavin]

I feel I can shed some light on this having done the WPBSA course with Del.

Dels take on this is that you CANNOT have a parallel cue. It is impossible because the rail is in the way. Therefore you are always just cueing in a downward slope. He says that because of this you must follow this slope up as you go back with the cue. Then when you deliver the cue you go back down the slope. The elbow drops so that you can get right through the white. The elbow also drops to close the back of the hand and makes the hand close automatically rather than snatching at it.

check out Ronnie Osullivan practising http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhypbnmnjY

You can see how on the delivery his cue has dropped from its address position and has leveled off rather than follow the plane (1 min 47)

Now I do not automatically agree with Del but thought I may be able to explain his thinking.

On another point if you try and keep the cue level throughout you are going to have to make sure the gap between the front of grip and chest is at least 8 inches to allow for striking the white and getting at least 5/ 6 inches of tip through it. Now many of the players I have coached do not have this gap and so they find Dels way easier as you can go under the chest more.

[CoachGavin]

I feel I can shed some light on this having done the WPBSA course with Del.

Dels take on this is that you CANNOT have a parallel cue. It is impossible because the rail is in the way. Therefore you are always just cueing in a downward slope. He says that because of this you must follow this slope up as you go back with the cue. Then when you deliver the cue you go back down the slope. The elbow drops so that you can get right through the white. The elbow also drops to close the back of the hand and makes the hand close automatically rather than snatching at it.

check out Ronnie Osullivan practising http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhypbnmnjY

You can see how on the delivery his cue has dropped from its address position and has leveled off rather than follow the plane (1 min 47)

Now I do not automatically agree with Del but thought I may be able to explain his thinking.

On another point if you try and keep the cue level throughout you are going to have to make sure the gap between the front of grip and chest is at least 8 inches to allow for striking the white and getting at least 5/ 6 inches of tip through it. Now many of the players I have coached do not have this gap and so they find Dels way easier as you can go under the chest more.

[nrage]

I feel I can shed some light on this having done the WPBSA course with Del.

Thanks

I agree with Del that you CANNOT have a parallel cue (despite my first post in this thread which was worded badly). I also agree that the cue wants to follow the slope back on the back swing. I think it should follow it as long as possible on the stroke, to ensure the tip strikes where you're aiming.

I think one common problem some people have with playing screw is an early elbow drop, meaning the tip comes up before/during contact with the white.

That said, I think an elbow drop is essential on high power shots to ensure you don't decelerate and get far enough through the white. So, the trick is to make sure it happens late enough. I think you can achieve that with a minor adjustment in bridge length or grip position. This is why having a consistent bridge and grip is so important (for some people) because if you shorten the distance between these then the elbow drop occurs earlier, possibly early enough to be before/during contact with the white.

I reckon you're right about the cheat gap/level cue, I don't have a gap of 8 inches and need the elbow drop to get through the white.