Some Comments on Keeping The Grip Loose

[johno]

Terry

Interesting idea and I hope it's helped you in the tournament, have you also used this grip when tight on the cushion
or playing short roll up shots when you would normally grip the butt a few inches higher up.

[jrc750]

....The correct term i meant to say was front and back hand english, ....

So what does this mean then ????
I know the American's refer to side spin as "English" but how do you put front and back hand spin on the ball ??
Do you mean follow thro and screw back, ??? if so then you use these shots many times in each frame

[Dannyboy]

No it's not follow through or screw back and it is hard to explain, try looking on youtube typing FRONT AND BACK HAND ENGLISH American pro pool player's use this in their game.

[Sidd]

Sure thing Coach... Thanks for explaining. As I am the one having problems in this aera, I will try it tonight and let you know what happens.

[Terry Davidson]

johno:

Answer to your question is NO. When I play off the cushion or else the 2 balls are close together I choke up on the cue (move my hand up the butt until my grip forearm is in FRONT of the vertical by a couple of inches) si I can follow-through normally and drive the grip hand to my chest. I find my play off the cushion has really improved since I started using this method (taught by the Terry Griffiths school)

Terry

[CoachGavin]

Front and back hand english sounds very complicated. Will have to have a look for it.

On the grip side I have been experimenting lately and found that the only consistent way to not clutch at the cue was by dropping the elbow properly. Otherwise the grip has to be just right and players have a hard time keeping it at the right looseness.

I found that if I finish with my grip at the chest and keep the elbow up or nearly up then the grip tightens automatically. If I drop the elbow like Ronnie O Sullivan or Mark Selby then the grip does not tighten. Yesterday I tried both methods and the acceleration through the ball is much better when the elbow is allowed to drop.

[nrage]

Back Hand English is using a pivot point to cue across the line of aim, to compensate for squirt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T3ai0SM1aw

It's an interesting idea, however at slower speeds over distance swerve comes into it and ruins the effect somewhat, requiring aim compensation anyway. The more interesting idea IMO, is that if you find the correct bridge/pivot length for your cue, then using that length will effectively 'correct' cueing errors due to accidental side. the white will go where you want, all the time, albeit with some amount of side.

[limecc]

Back Hand English is using a pivot point to cue across the line of aim, to compensate for squirt.

What horrible Americanism. Please use proper English when describing these terms.

[nrage]

What horrible Americanism. Please use proper English when describing these terms.

Umm.. *I* do, I was explaining the terms for everyone else :P

It's not actually something we have an 'English' term for, at least, not to my knowledge .. it's one of those American crack pot systems, only this one turned out to have some basis in science and therefore some actual merit.

As it's a system you really have to buy into it completely and develop a consistent bridge length in order to make it work.

[limecc]

Terry, I was looking at the 360 trainer cue and reading the comments, initially it looks very good. However when playing back Cazmac's Del Hill series for the 1000th time, he mentions how Ronnie, Hendry and Davis all either shine up their waistcoats, or wear holes in them as the cue rubs on the essential chest contact point. In Joe Davis's book, he mentions how his tie would wear out.

There's obviously some pressure being exerted here which would be incompatible with either the 360 trainer, or the loose grip you are advocating. I understand your theory but how do you reconcile what I just mentioned?

[Dannyboy]

That's a good point limecc,and will be interested in hearing the opinion's of all on this matter.

[nrage]

Terry, I was looking at the 360 trainer cue and reading the comments, initially it looks very good. However when playing back Cazmac's Del Hill series for the 1000th time, he mentions how Ronnie, Hendry and Davis all either shine up their waistcoats, or wear holes in them as the cue rubs on the essential chest contact point. In Joe Davis's book, he mentions how his tie would wear out.

There's obviously some pressure being exerted here which would be incompatible with either the 360 trainer, or the loose grip you are advocating. I understand your theory but how do you reconcile what I just mentioned?

I have a 360 cue as well, I bought it after trying Terry's in Glocester. I also have a story to relate, and a theory

A friend of mine plays with a lot of pressure between the cue and chest and simply cannot get on with the 360 at all. His feeling is, that without this pressure he feels he cannot control the cue. I think this feeling of control comes from it being a habit.

My feeling is, that any pressure you exert on the cue to push it against your chest will be opposed by an equal an opposite force (physics 101), and to keep the cue on line you're constantly playing a balancing game with these forces. In addition these forces are pushing back in the chest, the grip hand and the bridge, increasing friction there and hampering a smooth cuing action.

I believe the theory behind the 360 is that instead of applying these forces and trying to balance them (which is a dynamic action and therefore difficult) why not apply no force in either horizontal/sideways direction and instead let the cue do what it would naturally do (if you applied no sideways forces) travel in a straight line.

After all, that's the goal right?

I think the pros, given the number of shots they play, would wear through a waistcoat/tie etc even with a light amount of pressure along the chest. But, it might be good to try and find any direct comments from a pro about this..

That's my theory, but perhaps having bought a cue I'm invested in it being a good idea now I can honestly say that I have found the cue helpful, it almost immediately caused me to loosen my grip, and keep it loose during the shot - for fear of bending the spring. If that's all it does, then it's worth the investment. If I ever decide it's no longer helping I can sell it on, I think even a 2nd hand one will sell for a reasonable sum.

[nrage]

On the grip side I have been experimenting lately and found that the only consistent way to not clutch at the cue was by dropping the elbow properly. Otherwise the grip has to be just right and players have a hard time keeping it at the right looseness.

I found that if I finish with my grip at the chest and keep the elbow up or nearly up then the grip tightens automatically. If I drop the elbow like Ronnie O Sullivan or Mark Selby then the grip does not tighten. Yesterday I tried both methods and the acceleration through the ball is much better when the elbow is allowed to drop.

I definitely think you're right about this. When I've been really "in the groove" I have had a nice loose grip and a natural elbow drop - so much so that it almost feels as if the cue is pulling my arm along behind it like it's on a piece of string which is just unwinding along the path of the cue - if you know what I mean.

[Dannyboy]

Can someone please explain what you mean by dropping the elbow and how you do this on the shot.

[CoachGavin]

Watch Davis play in the 80's. His elbow hardly moves with each shot. Especially the pot at 4:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysgJHBSoEMc


Now watch Ronnie O sullivan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthXRHxj18A

His elbow drops considerably. That is what is meant by dropping the elbow.

There are numerour threads on here about advantages/disadvantages of it and how to do it. If you are interested try looking at the video of Del Hill teaching it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n53CGDi-JM starting from about 4:20 he speaks of dropping the elbow etc.

Hope that helps.