An intriguing observation: The Ronnie practice Grip

[Sidd]

While looking at different snooker videos on the internet, I found out something that caught my attention. I saw a video clip of Ronnie practicing with cross line-up and seemed he was potting pinks to improve his pink potting (nice example on improving pink potting). I saw that three times just to learn and was thinking on doing the same to improve my pink potting. There are three things one can learn from this video:

1. Nice backswing where his cue tip comes back to the bridge on EVERY shot.
2. Nice and rythamic follow through on ALL shots.
3. Of course the relax nice and smooth pinks he takes on.

Anyway, I was watching closely and noticed his Grip hand. He has a very unusual grip in this video there his first or index finger is loose on the grip to an extent that only his finger pad might be touching the but. In other words, it seems he is gripping his cue with the thumb and second finger.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthXRHxj18A

Anyway, so when I noticed this I went in and played a few games with this grip and to my astonishment it worked absolutely fine for me. Raised my potting level and placing as well. I started with my normal grip and I wasnt very much ok with it but then I tried this thing and it worked great for me.

Any ideas as to why he was gripping like that (what was the intent) and why or how it worked for me? What does this prove if I can play better with this grip and not my own... what would that mean or what am I doing wrong with my own grip.... ????

Just curious and intrigued- hence asking.

[stephenm2682]

i think he used his second and third fingers, i've seen it been talked about before on this forum.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

Ronnie has always gripped with his middle 2 fingers with his forefinger up off the butt a bit and then when he follows through he grips with his back 2 fingers which gets an action similar to the 'wrist flick' Jimmy White used to have, and a slightly longer follow-through.

I myself use my second finger as my primary grip sometimes, especially at the start of a match as I find it helps me to drive the cue through the cueball better. The reason is I can keep my grip looser through the delivery with this grip and when I use the normal 4-finger grip I find when I'm stressed a bit at the start of a match I tend to tighten the grip too soon. I also use another grip too, using just the second finger and having the baby finger right off the back of the butt and up against the back of my palm.

If you look closely at Ronnie's cue action you will see that he drops his elbow early (before the strike) and is therefore using his stronger shoulder muscle to accelerate the cue and his grip helps to keep everything straight for him. However, he learned to play this way from the time he took up the game at age 8 and I do not recommend this type of technique to anyone who has been playing the game awhile and tries to change to Ronnie's technique. I have to tell you though that Ronnie accelerates through the cueball better than any other pro and that's because he has that stronger shoulder muscle coordinated well (but not perfectly lately as his long potting has suffered).

My next question for you is...do you want to play like Sidd or do you want to play like Sidd-copying-ROS? It's much better to copy all the things the pros do in COMMON (like loose grip, slow backswing, accelerate through the cueball, driving the hand to the chest and staying still on the shot). Every single pro has some type of difference in their technique when compared to other pros but it's not wise to try and exactly copy any one pro unless his technique is picture perfect (like maybe Shaun Murphy or Steven Lee) and ONLY IF IT HAPPENS TO WORK FOR YOU.

So by all means experiment with a different grip and see if it helps but you must use it for at least 2 weeks to really test it out. If at the end of that it is still working then by all means cement it into your own technique but don't do something just because Ronnie does it.

Terry

[Sidd]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Terry: well said. Thanks for the much needed and of course anticipated explanation. I have no intent of copying Ronnie (he isn't perhaps my most favourite player to qualify me copying him) I surely want to play like Sidd and none else. However, I just had it in mind after seeing him as to why is he doing so. I thought he is experimenting, I did not know he has always played like that. However, I tested this grip just to experiment what happens and since I started playing straight, I was rather amazed as to how can I play beter with an alien grip against my grip that has stayed with me for over a decade now.

I just used it as a test to see what happens. This was a silly thing to try but seems it has worked for me. How? Well based on your explanation that you also use your second finger as your primary grip sometimes to drive the cue through the cueball better and perhaps this is what I was looking for.... Thanks again COACH! You are the best. What this means for me is, and do correct me if I am wrong, that if this Ronnie-type grip seems to work well for me then it means that I am simply making one mistake i.e. tightening the grip too early even though that I do not intend to. Will work on that.

For now what I know is that I have got my comfortable stance, I have a nice firm bridge with a very pronounced V, I do not have any upper body movement including shoulders and head, good front pause, nice slow backswing and nice little backswing pause, I can sight properly and can see that line of aim too ... so everything comes in the end to my grip and hence things are easy now after this journey that all I need to do is perhaps work only on one thing i.e. my grip. I know once the grip is loose enough I will be able to drive through better and hence my follow through will improve automatically.

Just one more thing now that this grip topic has emerged from the discussion... How do you define the thin line that differenciates between a nice firm but loose grip AND a sloppy grip. While keeping the grip loose till the end of delivery (am I right? the grip has to be kept loose till the end of follow through) and not keeping it sloppy ... so what would be the difference in firm loose (required) and sloppy loose (undesired)...!!!

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

Just a comment on when the grip tightens which is ANYTIME AFTER THE CUEBALL HAS BEEN STRUCK and not when the grip hand hits the chest but it is important to drive the grip hand through to the chest. You have to tighten the grip in order to overcome the resistance of striking the cueball and still drive the cue through.

Give the 2-3 finger grip a good trial as it might balance out a premature elbow drop if you have one and also give my other idea a trial (the baby finger right off the butt and curled into the palm right at the back of the cue) and see how it goes too as I find it does help with minimizing the wrist turn a lot of players get when they tighten the baby finger on the butt.

I'm not recommending you play permanently with this type of grip however there's really nothing wrong with it and Matthew Stevens uses this grip almost exclusively.

To define EXACTLY how tight the grip should be I will have to give Steve Davis the thanks for coming up with this definition of grip firmness. Hold the cue across your upper thighs using your normal grip then with your bridge hand grasp the shaft and move the cue through the grip hand, not allowing the grip hand to move at all. The butt of the cue should move easily within the grip hand.

The other point is with this looseness of grip, if when delivering a power shot (and you've mastered keeping the grip loose until the strike) if the grip hand slides up the cue this is NOT an indication that the grip is too loose but rather that the acceleration is too rapid.

Terry

[narl]

Its strange looking at how O'Sullivan plays now compared to how he did in the 90's, back then he really had no pause at all when he played, now he has a noticable pause when playing. Is it unusual to see a players technique change so much?

[cueman]

I think a lot of players adapt their technique but I think this is largely down to which coach they are working with. Different coaches have different methods and sometimes its about finding the right coach to suit your game. Every player is different so what works for one player won't work for someone else. When Ronnie was working with Frank Adamson I think when he changed his cue action to pretty much what it is today. I remember going to watch Ronnie in the LG cup I think around 2001 at the start of the season and I noticed straight away how much of a pause he had in his backswing, he generally slowed his game right down. In fact I think it was from that moment on that Ronnie developed his most consistant run of form and started winning tournaments more regularly.

[hotpot]

Does anyone think that most players adapt a backpause nuturally as they get older in order to give them a little more time to focus on the potting angle , as the hand eye coordination slows down a little as we got on a bit .

[Sidd]

I have a few questions on your comments Coach. So I iwill phrase them at the end of each para of yours in blue. Woudl appreciate answers for my better understanding.

Sidd:

Just a comment on when the grip tightens which is ANYTIME AFTER THE CUEBALL HAS BEEN STRUCK and not when the grip hand hits the chest but it is important to drive the grip hand through to the chest. You have to tighten the grip in order to overcome the resistance of striking the cueball and still drive the cue through. Now this would mean that I can tighten the grip after I hit the ball and not after the follow through has completed. Sorry for being naieve again but what I understood was the I should keep the grip loose till the follow through has completed and maybe that was the mistake I was committing. Is that correct? What I now understand is that I can tighten the grip anytime after I hit the cueball but make sure I drive through or reach the chest even if the resistence due to tightening is there. If this is correct, and I think it is, then this must ahve been my problem cuz I got it all wrong and was trying to keept he grip as loose as possible until the follow through has completed. Would appreciate answer to this as it might be what I expect it to be and shall surely help me improve a lot really a lot I know in advance.

Give the 2-3 finger grip a good trial as it might balance out a premature elbow drop if you have one and also give my other idea a trial (the baby finger right off the butt and curled into the palm right at the back of the cue) and see how it goes too as I find it does help with minimizing the wrist turn a lot of players get when they tighten the baby finger on the butt. I will and in fact am still giving a trial to the Ronnie type grip and even tonight it seems ot work better for me for some reason. But I will have to try idea 1 as above first and if it solves my problem then I will drop this grip adjustment. I will surely try out the baby finger grip as well and see what it does to me.

To define EXACTLY how tight the grip should be I will have to give Steve Davis the thanks for coming up with this definition of grip firmness. Hold the cue across your upper thighs using your normal grip then with your bridge hand grasp the shaft and move the cue through the grip hand, not allowing the grip hand to move at all. The butt of the cue should move easily within the grip hand. Thanks for that I think I can see that now!

The other point is with this looseness of grip, if when delivering a power shot (and you've mastered keeping the grip loose until the strike) if the grip hand slides up the cue this is NOT an indication that the grip is too loose but rather that the acceleration is too rapid. well this has never happened to me so I think my acceleration might not be that bad eh

Terry

Would love your responses Coach in order to understand my error better in this regard. If it is what I expect it is then I think it will be very easy for me to improve cuz tightening the grip after hitting and before folloe through ends is natural and I can do it easily but if I have to keep it loose til the end of follow through then I have to be concious of it and hence it is rather difficult to achieve...!!!

[icem3n]

When you say second finger, do you mean the index finger or the middle finger?
I am confused.

I sometime see Ronnie plays with a loose index finger(pointing finger).
Did he adopt this from his golf grip?
Is the index finger touching thumb or the middle finger is touching the thumb?

Cheers!

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

Your answer to your first question is ...YES bacause you cannot keep the grip that loose after the cueball has been struck since your grip hand would ride up the cue due to the resistance of hitting the cueball. Even though you think you are not tightening your grip until the hand hits the chest this physically cannot be so as your hand would slip on the cue butt (try it on purpose and see what happens).

icem3n:

If I look at the back of your hand with the fingers spread and consider the thumb is not a finger and count from left to right (if you're right handed) then the first finger is the index finger, the second finger is the one that is normally the longest and sometimes called the 'middle' finger even though it isn't really, then the third one which I don't know what it's called ('second middle finger?) and then we come to number four, which is often called the baby finger.

In Ronnie's grip the forefinger or index finger or 'peter-pointer' finger doesn't touch the thumb and although I just can't be certain as I've never had a good look I would think the thumb, which is definitely pointed straight down' would be just touching the second or 'middle' finger.

I doubt if this was adapted from his golf grip but was picked up when he first learned to play snooker. Remember he was 8 years old and would have had a tough time not only reaching the table but also getting the power required and this is why he uses his shoulder muscle early (in my opinion). Note that his elbow drops before he strikes the cueball but I recommend no one follows this method unless you are short and 8 years old and just learning the game.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

Just a note to say if you watch alex higgins and his grip he often had his first finger completely off the cue when playing. Very similar to Ronnie. I think quite a few players change their cue actions in an attempt to improve their game. Look at hendry. His cue action in the 1980's was very different to when at his peak in the mid 1990's. Jimmy White plays differently too. Think people are just searching for that bit extra.

[icem3n]

Terry, that is clear to me now. thanks!

[Sidd]

Dear Coach,

Today I noticed something that I really wanted to discuss with you. While practicing the line up I noticed this thing that on some shots I am not driving the cue (grip hand) up to the chest and hence am missing terribly. I started concentrating on that and as soon as I got it going I started potting with my usual four finger grip.

Then when during the match I played 8 frames. My first two frames went good and I won whereas the rest 5 I lost and was struggling again, maybe I was gripping tight again or something and then in my last frame again I just thought to myself that I am not driving the grip hand to the chest on all shots and then played the last frame like a pro and did not miss much and won easily.

What should that mean? Would that mean that my main and only visible problem righgt now is not driving the grip hand to the chest on all shots? If I can master that I believe my game will become more consistent. I also think that since grip tightening and not driving the cue are related to each other hence while not driving I am gripping tightly and once I am driving my grip is loose... This might mean a solution to both of my problems and I think it is so... Another thing is that while I intentionally concentrate on driving the cue through and do take my grip hand to the chest- my positional play dramatically improves and so does my potting.

Also, lastly, for some reason this thing (driving the grip to the chest on ALL shots) get off my mind and I get involved in the game without concentrating on this factor and hence start playing bad and loosing and missing and all that. How do you suggest I keep this in my mind all the time??? and yes, driving the grip hand to the chest on ALL shots is really difficult to achieve especially on slower or lesser power shots like when you only need ot roll the white a little to be on the colour etc.

Woudl appreciate your expert comments, as always sir!

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

I'm devistated!!! It appears my pearls of wisdom are falling on deaf ears as I believe I've spoken to you on this item before.

In review...if you do not 'drive' the grip hand through to the chest on EVERY shot then this means you are decelerating 'clutching' the cue on delivery which in turn means you are tightening the grip BEFORE striking the cueball and then this action puts movement into the head/shoulder and also causes the butt of the cue to go off-line.

I believe I've mentioned before every player need ONE swing thought (or 'dummy' as Del Hill calls it) and in your case you obviously need something which will encourage you to 'drive through' the cueball. As I have the same problem I will 'lend' you my swing thought, which is actually a combination of two things since I also have a tendency to raise my head/shoulder on the backswing.

On every shot (except when the balls are close together) try and imagine you are hitting the OBJECT BALL with the tip of the cue. To get this and also to try and keep myself still and solid on the backswing my swing thought is 'STILL - HIT OBJECT BALL'. I say this to myself when I'm standing behind the shot and again when I start my feathering.

The 'dummy' should be as short and to the point as you can make it in order to not confuse yourself and it should concentrate on the most glaring issue you have in technique, which in your case is driving through.

By the way, if every player stayed absolutely still on the shot and drives the cue through (accelerates THROUGH the cueball as if it isn't there) they would improve a lot faster at this game of ours.

Terry