Drop The Elbow?.

[throtts]

Take a look at Robert Milkins cue action. I am quite sure its quite apparent that he really does drop the elbow..

[Terry Davidson]

Get a grip please. Tommy...first of all the elbow doesn't drop on all shots on the delivery and sometimes it doesn't drop at all on the backswing. It all depends on backswing length (which generally means more length then more power) and the same is true for delivery as the elbow will drop more on a higher power shot.

If you are rolling a red in around the black at pocket weight then the backswing might be 3" with no elbow drop and the delivery will still bring the hand through to the chest but at very low rate of acceleration and therefore no elbow drop.

Sidd...if you backswing more than 4" AND if you keep the cue on the same plane then you will naturally drop your elbow as the arm is a set length and you have to straighten the elbow joint to get the lengthy backswing and therefore the elbow must drop, but generally not a lot, maybe 1" to 2".

On the delivery it's a completely different thing though as with a shot over medium pace you are really trying to accelerate THROUGH the cueball more and in order to keep the cue virtually on the same plane again you MUST drop the elbow.

So what are we left with???

It looks like the length the cue is moving on any particular shot determines whether the elbow has to drop and the real determining factor is the cue must be kept on the same plane without the butt rising on the backswing nor dropping too much on the delivery.

I think people need to put a little thought into the cueing technique as a lot of answers I'm giving here are really just common sense and anyone should be able to figure out the answers before they ask the questions

Terry

[stephenm2682]

i agree with terry....i to could be missing the point, but i've never seen Judd Trump drop his elbow on the backswing, and especially on the delivery.

also, you say to keep the cue on a level plane, but o'sullivan as his 2" above the cushion, from what i can tell

[Terry Davidson]

stephen:

Because of the height of the cushion the cue is never on a pure level plane so what I say is either 'keep the cue on the same plane' or 'as level as possible', but it can never be absolutely level.

There is a clip on here of Judd Trump giving some snooker lessons in China and near the end of it he does two 10' shots, screwing the cueball first back to baulk and secondly back to baulk and out again. These are real high power shots where he uses a long backswing (backswing length should be longer on power shots) and also drives the cue through the cueball at a very high rate of acceleration. On both these shots he drops his elbow on the backswing and also on the delivery.

On post #11 in this string, watch the youtube clip of Higgins on his 147 and at around 2:50 or so he has an almost straight black and he goes through the black 3 cushions to get the yellow into the green pocket. This is a real power shot and watch his elbow on both backswing and delivery and you will see it drop at both ends. (Remember, when you watch Trump again to try and confirm I'm wrong, that the elbow drop on the backswing is only about one inch and on the delivery it's a little more, probably 2in or so.)

However, if you feel you play better without dropping the elbow then please do so, as I can only teach what is considered the 'ideal' technique and part of that ideal technique is to keep the cue on the same plane so the tip doesn't rise or fall during the backswing and delivery. On backswings longer than about 4" the elbow MUST drop to keep the butt from rising (and the tip from going down) and on deliveries longer than 4" or 5" the elbow again should also drop to keep the tip from rising on delivery.

Players who use a pure pendulum swing without dropping the elbow at either end will be 'scooping' the cue into the cueball and unless their coordination is absolutely PERFECT there is no way they can accurately control the height they hit the cueball at. Judd Trump definitely doesn't scoop his cue so he must be dropping his elbow on anything but low power shots.

Terry

[stephenm2682]

good observation Terry, i knew he dropped it on the long power screw shots as that is understandable as his cue left his bridge hand.!

the cue is never level, but don't you advocate keeping it about 1" from the cushion? it's just some pro's seem to have it a little higher, maybe i'm not looking carefully enough.

also i use the elbow drop, but on slow shots it still goes down, say if i stand in a mirror while facing it, the elbow drops out of sight behind my head, which i am sure is wrong, but can't keep it elevated no matter how hard i try. Is it ok to drop it on all shots? if it's natural

[merlin1234]

Is it ok to drop it on all shots? if it's natural

I don't understand how you could drop your elbow on very short backswings without dropping the butt as well, unless there's some body movement that you're correcting for or something like that.

[stephenm2682]

i mean on striking the white, not on the backswing,

so your saying if you do do elbow dropping, it should be on both the backswing and delivery?

[merlin1234]

Ok dude I'm no snooker coach but just from what Terry has said :

If your backswing is long enough for your cue arm to pass very much past the perpendicular you have to drop your elbow to keep your cue on plane. The shorter the backswing the less the change in angle and the less the elbow must drop, and if the backswing is only a few inches there may be no visible elbow drop.

Ok I've re-read Terry and reworded this :

The drop on follow through is following the same principle, longer than a few inches (medium power or over) and the elbow must start to drop to keep the cue on plane.

Hopefully Terry will correct me where I'm wrong. I think he might be getting tired of repeating himself on some of this stuff, though.

eta I don't think dropping your elbow on every delivery would a problem, as long as it's because you're following right through on every shot?

[Terry Davidson]

The elbow drop only comes into play when the backswing and delivery is long enough that the 'pendulum effect' of the elbow joint would raise the butt of the cue. The elbow drop is SOLELY employed to keep the cue on the same plane and as level as possible (BUT PLEASE, NOT level AS SOME PEOPLE HAVE ASSUMED since the cushion height makes that IMPOSSIBLE).

So, to make this perfectly clear to EVERYONE (I hope) as Merlin is right, I'm getting very tired of repeating myself on this subject. YOU DO NOT NEED TO DROP THE ELBOW ON ANY BACKSWING WHICH IS LESS THAN ABOUT 4 INCHES (and this means a lower-power shot) and also you do not need to drop the elbow on the DELIVERY on a lower power shot (although you should always drive the grip hand through to the chest and if you naturally drop the elbow when you do this then that is just fine).

But, the elbow must raise and lower perfectly VERTICAL otherwise you are going to get yourself into trouble. IF YOU CAN'T DROP THE ELBOW PERFECTLY STRAIGHT...then don't drop the damned thing! All you'll have is less power but probably better accuracy.

Terry

[Sidd]

Thanks a lot Terry. It is very clear to me now. I will just notice my backswing and delivery on longer backswings behind a mirror to confirm if I am dropping my elbow or not. I have a feeling that I am dropping it unintensionally so I guess I shall be fine with that. I dont want to have another thing to keep in mind anyway. But with your explanation the reason and how to of the elbow drop are pretty much clear to me. I have now realised that I might be doing so.

I remember myself once playing an amlost straight blue in the middle pocket when the cueball ended on the wrong side of the blue. Now to get back to the reds I had to play the blue follow with running side with lots of power to go in and around the baulk and back to the reds. So when I finished the delivery I still remember my grip hand finishing (after the shot of course) near my chin / beyond chest that is. And I do remember my elbow dropping severely for that shot. So this clears it up for me.. Thanks Coach.

And for those who are putting up a debate in their attempts to understand this particular part of technique; what Terry says is absolutely correct. However, model technique can never ever be compared with the pros guys come on. Every player has a natural way of playing. Now in order to get this cleared out just think over this notion: whatever the model technique preached by coaches all around the world says was exactly opposite to how Alex Higgins used to play but still he was a champion. Isn't that so? Keep the head still and remain on the shot after the delivery compared to how Alex would sort of dance around the table makes my jaw drop (rather than the elbow yeah)...! This means that there are variations in players and one has to find out one's own technique which is comfortable to him and also makes him to the BOTTOM LINE i.e. Deliver the Cue Straight...!

Hope this serves the purpose.

[Terry Davidson]

On this thread I think some of us have gotten on the wrong track.

It's not the elbow drop which is the most important thing, IT'S KEEPING THE CUE ON THE SAME PLANE THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING. If a player can keep the cue nicely on the same plane for any type of shot then he may not have to drop his elbow, however on those more powerful shots requiring more power THE ELBOW DROP OCCURS NATURALLY.

Don't screw yourselves up by concentrating on getting the elbow to drop (or not drop as the case may be), RATHER CONCENTRATE ON KEEPING THE CUE ON THE SAME AND ALMOST LEVEL PLANE

Terry