To Grip or Not to Grip

[Sidd]

Hello all after a little pause. I was off this forum for some time but was practicing and learning and intending to improve all those days. So after working on stance, pre-shot set-up and so many other things, which I think are OK now, more or les, I am down to the only two things, I believe, for my game to improve to a real good level. The grip and the follow through (driving through after striking the cueball).

So while searching and researching about the above two, as identified to be my major problems (correctly indeed) by Coach Terry I have found out the following so that is my finding so far through observation, coaching tips, experience and practice:

The follow through cannot be improved at all without a proper grip. Unless one learns what the coaches mean by grip and how they teach and what the exact grip should be like, no one can figure out that easily. As someone on this forum suggested to me that I will have to go through trial and error to find out and yes it is correct and I did do that. Now I understand why coach was being so angry at me on times and it was merely because he was telling me simple things but then the problem is that snooker makes you find them the hard way and yes you have to work hard and work hard all the time till you get to know what that means and what a coach is referring to. So the follow through would come by itself when one is cueing properly and straight and yes (particularly for me and generlly for others) Terry Griffiths was right when he said "for 70 break standard players 80% of their problem is grip related" and that is what I have found out.

I went to thesnookergym.com forum and there is a dedicated forum topic for the grip hand so when I browsed through the different threads there I realised and learnt from those tips mainly by Terry himself that my actual problem in the grip is not pressing the last three fingers on the butt. Surprisingly I am doing that quite ok but then the mystery for me was in the V part of the grip. Bloody me, I never figured out before that I was applying undesired pressure through my thumb and forfinger on the grip. The other day I noticed a very good player in our club play. I noticed his grip for some time and soon realised that when he plays his thumb isnt touching his forfinger at all actually. So the only area left with him to drive the cue through is the upper V becasue his all four fingers seem loose as well and then after hitting the cueball his fingers still seem loose enough even at the rest position after completing follow through, means he never grips/clintches on his cue at all throughout. Similarly I noticed another thing in him which I have Ronnie doing as well but I thought Ronnie seems to do that becasue he grips with his second finger and not forefinger but after seeing this player I realised the real meaning and also learnt from Terry on snookergym so then the mystry was solved for me i.e. only the V part drives the cue no pressure from the thumb (for me) and when strike is done and follow through completed cue is gripped slighly and gently by back three fingers still not with thumb and forefinger i would need answers if that is correct please??????????

This explains it all that the cue is driven by the V without any thumb pressure and delivery ended by holding or lets say stopping the cue finally with back three fingers where thumb and index finger still remain loose and can be seen like that. This player in my club if you watch him you will notice that he plays rather with a seemingly flying thumb, as I shall call it, so I started practicing with that and shockingly it works for me tried it for three days and developed a nice little easy smooth 38 break without a problem and the break wasnt ending as it didnt due to missing a ball but I screwed a pink lesser than required and didnt fall on a red so had to play safe. MEans this technique is doing wonders for me, for the first time in my life I guess I have known what and how a grip is gripped

Suggestions, advice, awaited...!!!

[pottr]

I have to admit, I scratch my head over all this analysis over the basic technical aspects of the game.

Whenever I have a bad patch I find the worst thing in the world for me to do is to start playing about with different considerations of my action. Nevertheless, I still fall victim of this until I remember that there's not a lot wrong and that the reason I start to play poor at all is because I get lazy with the application of my basic technique.

My advice to anyone who wants to get consistent wouldn't be to try and copy top level players but to focus on getting a steady playing rhythm.
Maintain discipline in the basics before looking to tweak things like 'a finger here, pressure for that millisecond and dropping the elbow'.

Walk into every shot the same, stand steady, try not to move your head too much and get through the white cleanly. When you start clearing 10 - 15 reds on the lineout routine, then scrutinize some of the finer points of the action. Until then, it's really not worth worrying about.

If you're worried that much about the grip. Just hold the cue so that it feels comfortable but not like you're holding on for life.

[Sidd]

Thanks Pottr: But wouldn't you agree- That it is a case of 'easier said than done'!

Without the correct grip there cant be any century breaks and there cant be any consistency in playing the game. I am blessed to have been coached by Terry coupled with my observation and practice; I have realised my biggest mistake (which appears as my signature line- as identified by Terry- for a reminder) and hence these are the only 2 things that I now have in mind and am progressig no doubt I still need some more solo to get the grip hand to the chest on almost every shot however first my grip was limiting it (applying pressure from the thumb unintentionally- however now that I have corrected it and am practicing to cement it in to my technique) I am sure I will also learn to drive through the cueball by keeping constantly 10 inches gap between cueball and bridge hand and hence be able to drive through consistently where my grip hand finishes at teh chest...

I am certain that I would have improved my game considerably very well by that time !!!

Coach (Terry), Nrage and other senior members; you guys are silent?

[nrage]

If it's working, keep at it and see how far it takes you.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

I've always said the thumb just barely touches the forefinger and does NOT exert any pressure on the butt (until the end of the delivery maybe). The forefinger is the master of all this with the other 3 back fingers barely touching the butt also (this all referes to the address position.

Now remember, your objective is to return the cue to the EXACT address position, with everything the same, at the time of strike. This means the thumb isn't applying any pressure and even the forefinger is just curled around the butt and applying no pressure either. (By the way, my own grip has the thumb not touching the forefinger at all and it is also not touching the butt of the cue)

Terry

[pottr]

Thanks Pottr: But wouldn't you agree- That it is a case of 'easier said than done'!

That's almost exactly what I was trying to point out.

Without the correct grip there cant be any century breaks and there cant be any consistency in playing the game

Not quite sure about that. I have no idea if I hold the cue correctly, I merely assume my technique has some merit as I knock in some fairly decent scores on a regular basis.

What I can say is that I have never once in fifteen years of playing ever wondered if my thumb and forfinger play much of a part in keeping the cue aligned and consistent as I deliver it through the white.

As the thread is on the grip, I honestly think I could clear the line out gripping the cue with the tips of my fingers. I'm not trying to be arrogant, I'm just stating that to me this proves that the grip is far from the determining factor when making centuries as you say.

I am blessed to have been coached by Terry coupled with my observation and practice

I wonder if Terry could indulge which aspects that coaches consider to be most important for a consistent cue action?

For my cue action my subconscious routine is:
Stand behind the shot,
visulalise,
walk into it,
aim,
chin and chest on the cue,
couple of feathers,
push the cue through and keep your head still,
move when the white stops.

Funnily enough, I've literally just noticed that I haven't even alluded to the grip or the bridge. This wasn't intentional but highlights that for me personally, I don't think the perfect grip is as essential to action as the above.

[denja]

Sidd:

I've always said the thumb just barely touches the forefinger and does NOT exert any pressure on the butt (until the end of the delivery maybe). The forefinger is the master of all this with the other 3 back fingers barely touching the butt also (this all referes to the address position.

Now remember, your objective is to return the cue to the EXACT address position, with everything the same, at the time of strike. This means the thumb isn't applying any pressure and even the forefinger is just curled around the butt and applying no pressure either. (By the way, my own grip has the thumb not touching the forefinger at all and it is also not touching the butt of the cue)

Terry

Just to clarify as the cue travels forward the grip should never tighten more than the grip in the normal set up position ?1. The grip is on the cue not too tight not too loose. 2. The cue moves backwards the second third and little finger opening slightly to keep cue parallel to table 3, the cue travels forward at some point the normal grip no tighter no looser is retained ? At what point is the normal grip retained to avoid snatching.

[Sidd]

Thanks for the response everyone and especially coach Terry. I was practicing last night with the thumb exerting no pressure at all and I saw what seems to work most decently for me is not to let the thumb touch even barely the forefinger tip so I have left it hanging down without touching the forefinger tip. Now for the forefinger Terry you are right again as always that the real master of the grip is the forefinger. I noticed yesterday that even if my thumb wasnt touching the forefinger the forefinger itself was exerting just a little pressure on the grip. So what I did was interesting... I intentionally, during practice, sort of loosened my forefinger in a way that rather than curling it around the butt so that the second finger pad is under the cue I sort of slided it just a bit outside (if you see what I mean) and had the forefinger curled in a way that under the butt the first pad of the forefinger was touching it or curling around it. That way my second finger pad was in the air or else not touching any part of the cue butt...

I also noticed on youtube that this is exactly how Ronnie and Williams play... Not saying this for copying them etc but I guess this works better for people who might have a tendency of exerting pressure from the index finger. Seems to be working good for me now as I played consistently... LEts see. Will update my finding in a week. Hope it solves my grip problem for once and good and I can improve finnally...!!!

[shaun]

Thanks Pottr: But wouldn't you agree- That it is a case of 'easier said than done'!

Without the correct grip there cant be any century breaks

Wrong, if you come to my club in upton park i can show you many amateurs who knocks in centuries occasionally have flaw in their cue action.
What i think you should have said that without the flawless basics there cannot be any consistency and improvement.

Sidd you must have seen this, but i am giving this link for others

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BYMVwkaDhM

See how Ronnie Grips the cue, your newly discovered grip is a bit similar to this isnt it Sidd?

[Terry Davidson]

For everyone...the actual configuration of the grip is not too important as long as a player developes one that allows him to keep it relaxed through the strike fo the cueball.

For pottr:

The absolute most important aspect of the technique is to keep the upper body absolutely still from when the bridge hand hits the table until the end of the follow-through.

Secondly, the grip should be relaxed and should not change during the delivery with the exception of the back 3 fingers coming back onto the butt of the cue but without exerting any more grip pressure.

Thirdly...driving the cue through the cueball as if it was a soap bubble with the grip hand hitting the chest to ensure the player accelerates through the cueball for ALL shots, even those soft taps around the black and even (especially) off the cushion.

Do these things consistently and rapid improvement will follow. It doesn't really matter where the feet are as long as the stance is stable and comfortable and the hip is out of the way. It doesn't matter whether the cue is on the chest or not as long as the player keeps it consistent. It doesn't matter how much the bridge arm is bent as long as the player is comfortable with the distance of his eyes from the cueball.

Most coaches, including myself, will teach an 'ideal' method but every player will have his own individual differences from that ideal technique. Now if a player has ambitions of turning pro, then a coach must bore down more into the nitty-gritty details of technique to make sure there's nothing present which will thrown the cue off-line

Terry

[pottr]

Top comment Shaun, i'm inclined to agree.

Thanks Terry, I've never had any form of coaching before but I comform to those points you stated. On the topic of the grip, indeed the pressure in my delivery does not change. However, the point I wanted to get across to Sidd was that if I put the thought in my mind that it needed to be spot on, then I wouldn't be concentrating on the rest of the action.

[Sidd]

OK Coach thanks for your comments for all to understand. I believe you ahve made the point I was also trying to make, but in a much better manner. Yes it is true nothing seems to matter for as long as a person can send the cue in a straight plane, simple enough. I have a player in my club who regularly knocks in 50-70 breaks and he has never had coaching literally nothing. He comes to the club tired or sleepy or happy or sad or whatever... wearing whaever, doing whatever at whatever time of the day whatever day of the week etc and he plays consistently well This proves that he is delivering the cue straight without knowing it right so why to worry. So if I have a grip that is nto proper but I can keep it proper and with same pressure and it helps me knock in regular 50's ... so that works for me. The same goes for stance bridge and other things as Terry said.

Guys, my story is different. I have been playing for more than 8 years now and still my highest break is 56 and I have reached 50's in break only twice or thrice in my career. Hence I am TERRIBLE when it comes to CONSISTENCY... yes TERRIBLE is the word. I left playing for 2 years and resumed in 2011. So I wanted to learn whats wrong. So I contacted Terry and ever since perhaps October 2011 he is working with me becasue I never knew about technique and had no good rythem. So when we started working it out together he worked on different things and kept on saying not to be spoon fed, which I did in the begining but now over time (after 6 months) all he has been telling me has started to make sense... becasue now I regularly do solo and experiment with different things and yes my consistency is improving no doubt.

As for the grip, I and Terry know that my most biggest flaw is actually the GRIP and follow through (see my signature line) and thats what we are working on. So you can forget about the grip as you are perhaps blessed with a good grip automatically so you dont need to work it out right. But I have to becasue I know gripping and driving are my baddies...

Shaun: Thanks for the valuable comments. OK I agree with you I should have said Consistency and not centuries indeed thats what I meant. Thanks mate! and Yes I have seen this video many times and you are spot on dude YES THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT I also noticed Williams doing something similar and saw that player in my club doing the same .. that player is one of the best in our club. He is actually the counter manager. So when I experimented with it I noticed my delivery suddenly improved. I had discussed this video with Terry a couple of months ago on another thread and I told Terry that when I do that as well my potting improves. But at that time Terry guided me that doing that (relaxing the index finger off the butt) makes the cue travel better. But at that time I did not know what he really was referring to so I forgot about it. Now that I am doing it again in my grip deliberately; things have changed for me considerably. So this means my evil was or is the forefinger presure that increases and clintches on the cue...... so this grip favours me so why not develop on that and try to cement it...!!!!!!!!!!!

Pottr: For me grip is of ultimate importance. I cant leave it behind becasue it is my problem right.

[denja]

Sidd:

I've always said the thumb just barely touches the forefinger and does NOT exert any pressure on the butt (until the end of the delivery maybe). The forefinger is the master of all this with the other 3 back fingers barely touching the butt also (this all referes to the address position.

Now remember, your objective is to return the cue to the EXACT address position, with everything the same, at the time of strike. This means the thumb isn't applying any pressure and even the forefinger is just curled around the butt and applying no pressure either. (By the way, my own grip has the thumb not touching the forefinger at all and it is also not touching the butt of the cue)

Terry

I think someone should invent a GRIPOMETER that can tell you just how much pressure the thumb and first finger should give,only joking ! but trying to explain just how tight these two finger hold the cue is hard,what would you say was the best description of the amount of pressure needed.

[Terry Davidson]

The cue butt should be able to slide back and forth within the grip quite easily (unless the player has sweaty hands which tends to make it a bit stickier)

Terry