What is the point of a backswing?

[screwball]

Since most players have a distinct pause at the end of the backswing and since most coaches teach the importance of this pause I wonder if the actual backswing itself is necessary. As an experiment I began addressing the ball with my cuetip about 2 to 3 inches away and using a tiny backward motion (less than 1 inch) to initiate the delivery. Almost immediately I found my potting improving and it was easier to effect side on the ball. The only thing that seems a bit less effective is the long draw. My conjecture is that my determination of the line of the shot and my alignment were pretty decent but I was taking the cue offline with the backswing (most likely towards the end).

I would be interested in hearing comments from those more experienced and especially the coaches whose imput I always find very helpful.

[FOXMULDER]

I'm not sure how you would generate any real power without a backswing.

[screwball]

I'm not sure how you would generate any real power without a backswing.

The backswing without the pause generates a certain plyometric effect but if the backswing has a pause then all the force generated is done so by the foreward motion. The cue still travels the same distance in a forward direction it is just that the cue address position is basically at the pause point and not at the cueball. Cliff Thorburn generated sufficient power for 95% of the shots most often played and with almost no backswing.

[Terry Davidson]

The only purpose of the backswing is to get the cue to the point of delivery. I've often said on here that a long backswing is the best option however ONLY IF THE PLAYER CAN CONTROL IT AND KEEP IT ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT.

The other point on the length of backswing, which you refer to, is the length of the backswing is proportional to the amount of power which can be applied to the pot (for power screws, etc.).

There's nothing absolutely wrong with having a shorter backswing (it's been the bane of my own snooker problems) BUT with a shorter backswing a player will tend to pull the cue back too quick and also when he does require a little more power he will unconciously apply that power using the shoulder muscle since the upper arm muscle with a short backswing does not have enough movement available to generate the power. This shoulder muscle use will normally generate head/shoulder movement on the delivery which is definitely VERY BAD.

So screwball, you have two choices which you (and only you) can decide what's best for you and what you will use going forward. Your choices are pretty simple:
1. Learn to use a longer backswing which you can keep ABSOLUTELY straight (a crooked backswing is normally caused by a poor grip configuration or else the elbow not dropping and coming up straight); or,
2. Use a shorter backswing which you can positively control and keep ABSOLUTELY straight but compromise on the amount of power you can apply for those power shorts which are sometimes necessary.

Just remember to keep the backswing, whichever one you use, SLOW AND STRAIGHT as 90% of the problems with cue delivery actually originate during the backswing.

Terry

[Tred]

So screwball, you have two choices which you (and only you) can decide what's best for you and what you will use going forward. Your choices are pretty simple:
1. Learn to use a longer backswing which you can keep ABSOLUTELY straight (a crooked backswing is normally caused by a poor grip configuration or else the elbow not dropping and coming up straight); or,
2. Use a shorter backswing which you can positively control and keep ABSOLUTELY straight but compromise on the amount of power you can apply for those power shorts which are sometimes necessary.

Just remember to keep the backswing, whichever one you use, SLOW AND STRAIGHT as 90% of the problems with cue delivery actually originate during the backswing.

Terry

Terry, would you ever advise a player to use a mixture of both?

For instance, Mark Williams seems to use a short backswing when he's rolling the balls in but opens up a bit more when he needs more power.

[Terry Davidson]

This is one of the things I disagree with Nic Barrow on as he advocates a long backswing for most shots although when I was playing him I noticed he was using a shorter backswing for lower power shots himself and we agreed that a long backswing all the time is not necessary, especially for low power shots.

Mark Selby and John Higgins are the two players I can think of who use a fairly long backswing for most shots, especially Selby.

The Terry Griffiths school advocates the backswing length should be proportional to the amount of power required and I use this myself and also agree with it. I find on a deep and powerful screw shot I will naturally take the cue back to where the ferrule is almost at the 'V' of my bridge and presently I have to really concentrate on keeping still on the backswing (I have a tendency to lift my head and shoulder, which takes the cue off-line) and keeping that longer backswing perfectly straight. Doing this has led me to a really good grip configuration which works for me and helps keep the shoulder muscle out of the shot and the head still.

What I would coach (and do coach) is the backswing should be proportional to the amount of power required, just as the TG school coaches. However I would add that for those medium-paced shots a lot of players will not bring the backswing back far enough and will end up getting their shoulder into the shot. I've even watched pros who when playing a softer shot will only pull back the cue a couple of inches and then they will 'clutch' the cue (decelerate before they hit the cueball) and will end up missing some of those dead easy soft shots around the black.

A longer backswing also helps the player to 'drive' through the cueball correctly, in other words maintain their acceleration through the cueball and beyond, which is very important in preventing any body movement on the shot.

A really good tip given to me once was to imagine you are trying to hit the object ball with the tip as you come through the cueball which encourages you to complete the shot without clutching the cue and decelerating and almost always missing the short or at least potting it off the jaw on one side of the pocket or other.

Terry

[Tred]

This is one of the things I disagree with Nic Barrow on as he advocates a long backswing for most shots although when I was playing him I noticed he was using a shorter backswing for lower power shots himself and we agreed that a long backswing all the time is not necessary, especially for low power shots.

Mark Selby and John Higgins are the two players I can think of who use a fairly long backswing for most shots, especially Selby.

The Terry Griffiths school advocates the backswing length should be proportional to the amount of power required and I use this myself and also agree with it. I find on a deep and powerful screw shot I will naturally take the cue back to where the ferrule is almost at the 'V' of my bridge and presently I have to really concentrate on keeping still on the backswing (I have a tendency to lift my head and shoulder, which takes the cue off-line) and keeping that longer backswing perfectly straight. Doing this has led me to a really good grip configuration which works for me and helps keep the shoulder muscle out of the shot and the head still.

What I would coach (and do coach) is the backswing should be proportional to the amount of power required, just as the TG school coaches. However I would add that for those medium-paced shots a lot of players will not bring the backswing back far enough and will end up getting their shoulder into the shot. I've even watched pros who when playing a softer shot will only pull back the cue a couple of inches and then they will 'clutch' the cue (decelerate before they hit the cueball) and will end up missing some of those dead easy soft shots around the black.

A longer backswing also helps the player to 'drive' through the cueball correctly, in other words maintain their acceleration through the cueball and beyond, which is very important in preventing any body movement on the shot.

A really good tip given to me once was to imagine you are trying to hit the object ball with the tip as you come through the cueball which encourages you to complete the shot without clutching the cue and decelerating and almost always missing the short or at least potting it off the jaw on one side of the pocket or other.

Terry

Thank you for such a detailed response, Terry. That makes a lot of sense.

[screwball]

The only purpose of the backswing is to get the cue to the point of delivery. I've often said on here that a long backswing is the best option however ONLY IF THE PLAYER CAN CONTROL IT AND KEEP IT ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT.

The other point on the length of backswing, which you refer to, is the length of the backswing is proportional to the amount of power which can be applied to the pot (for power screws, etc.).

There's nothing absolutely wrong with having a shorter backswing (it's been the bane of my own snooker problems) BUT with a shorter backswing a player will tend to pull the cue back too quick and also when he does require a little more power he will unconciously apply that power using the shoulder muscle since the upper arm muscle with a short backswing does not have enough movement available to generate the power. This shoulder muscle use will normally generate head/shoulder movement on the delivery which is definitely VERY BAD.

So screwball, you have two choices which you (and only you) can decide what's best for you and what you will use going forward. Your choices are pretty simple:
1. Learn to use a longer backswing which you can keep ABSOLUTELY straight (a crooked backswing is normally caused by a poor grip configuration or else the elbow not dropping and coming up straight); or,
2. Use a shorter backswing which you can positively control and keep ABSOLUTELY straight but compromise on the amount of power you can apply for those power shorts which are sometimes necessary.

Just remember to keep the backswing, whichever one you use, SLOW AND STRAIGHT as 90% of the problems with cue delivery actually originate during the backswing.

Terry

Thank you for your reply, Terry.

It is not that my backswing is short but that my address position is 2.5 - 4 inches from the cueball. In other words, my address position is where most players "Pause" would be on the backswing. My back hand is where is would normally be had I used a backswing (about 3-4 inches off vertical) so I get the same amount of forward motion and time to generate similar power had I used a backswing. If I want a more delicate shot I just address the cueball closer, say 2 inches but in any event my forward motion is the same as if I had used a backswing. It is just that I begin at the "Pause" position rather than at the cueball.

I'll let you know how the experiment goes.

[Terry Davidson]

Good God man!!! One of the absolute worse things you can do is to address the cueball from so far away. That distance is subtracted right off the amount of follow-through you can possibly get.

This was Mark Selby's original problem in that he cued up too far back from the cueball and when his coach/manager corrected that he rose from being ranked in the 50's up to the top 8 and recently #1.

Teach yourself to address the cueball from 1/4" or less. No excuses as everyone can do it. Also, remember when you deliver the cue you are trying to get it back to the EXACT address position, which in your case will be 2-4" short of the cueball

Terry

[screwball]

Good God man!!! One of the absolute worse things you can do is to address the cueball from so far away. That distance is subtracted right off the amount of follow-through you can possibly get.

This was Mark Selby's original problem in that he cued up too far back from the cueball and when his coach/manager corrected that he rose from being ranked in the 50's up to the top 8 and recently #1.

Teach yourself to address the cueball from 1/4" or less. No excuses as everyone can do it. Also, remember when you deliver the cue you are trying to get it back to the EXACT address position, which in your case will be 2-4" short of the cueball

Terry

I apologize because I don't think I am explaining properly what I am doing. My cue position (including my back hand) at the address position is exactly what it would be at the end of a normal backswing where a player would pause before beginning the forward motion. Just picture your own cue position when you pause at the end of the backswing and that is my address position. I have just eliminated the backswing and begin at the pause position. I have only tried it a couple of times but my potting has improved noticeably and I am getting much more action on the cueball.

[nrage]

I apologize because I don't think I am explaining properly what I am doing. My cue position (including my back hand) at the address position is exactly what it would be at the end of a normal backswing where a player would pause before beginning the forward motion. Just picture your own cue position when you pause at the end of the backswing and that is my address position. I have just eliminated the backswing and begin at the pause position. I have only tried it a couple of times but my potting has improved noticeably and I am getting much more action on the cueball.

Interesting. I think I would find it hard to feel lined up, starting from that far away.

[vmax4steve]

I apologize because I don't think I am explaining properly what I am doing. My cue position (including my back hand) at the address position is exactly what it would be at the end of a normal backswing where a player would pause before beginning the forward motion. Just picture your own cue position when you pause at the end of the backswing and that is my address position. I have just eliminated the backswing and begin at the pause position. I have only tried it a couple of times but my potting has improved noticeably and I am getting much more action on the cueball.

I have a friend who plays like this and he is a twenty break player and always has been and always will be. I have another friend, a league team mate, who has recently started to display chronic signs of the yips when playing any shot that needs to be played at anything above slow pace. He will address the cue ball like he normally does, but instead of taking the cue back and playing through the cue ball like he used to, he is now jerking the cue forward from the address position by putting his shoulder into the shot.
This action makes him drop his elbow before the cue ball has been struck and he nearly always misses and miscues quite often.
He knows he's doing it but can't stop himself.

I agree with Terry in that every shot should have a backswing long enough only for the amount of power required. I would have thought that this would be obvious and natural as it is impossible to play a deep screw shot from distance with only a two inch backswing and very dificult to play a slow roll up to a colour from two inches away by taking the cue all the way back to your V and pushing the cue through very slowly.

As regards to Cliff Thorburns action, he did address the cue ball from about two inches away, but his cue arm was not at 90 degrees to the floor when at rest, would have been at the moment the cue ball was struck though, and he did have a backswing that matched the power needed for the shot. Watch his WSC 147 again, the 14th black shows this quite clearly.

[Terry Davidson]

screwball:

Just a couple of points now that I understand (I think) what you're doing. First of all I assume you do not feather the ball at all since you start delivering the cue from the rear pause position. If you are feathering at all then you explanation can't be correct unless you feather further BACK from the 2.5" to 4" you say you have at the address position.

Secondly if your tip is only 2.5'-4" at the start of the delivery then that means your longest backswing, even for a power shot, will be only 4" which is definitely not enough for any power shot, but perhaps you don't play too many of those.

The most important thing missing though is if you never have the cue up against the cueball and still for a bit (as in the normal address position at front pause before the final backswing) how do you determine where you are aiming? One of the objectives in the good delivery of a cue is to return the cue back to the EXACT address position where the player has checked his line of aim.

I think you must be doing something else which you haven't explained in order to determine the line of aim of the cue.

The technique you have explained is not something I would ever recommend or teach however if you truly believe it works for you and makes you a better player then by all means continue to use it. However, as has been said above I wouldn't expect you to ever improve much since you really have no real cueing rhythm and also are not accurately determining the aiming line of the cue.

I suspect you must be feathering somewhere in order to determine the line of aim of the cue and I would also think if you are potting any difficult shots at all you must be somehow checking the line of aim, probably in the traditional manner but perhaps with your cue farther away from the cueball, as Cliff did. However Cliff then pulled back the cue and also had a rear pause

Terry

[stewart31]

i too am using this method, shorter back swing if we roll in, or stun, wee screw, makes sense, you would not see a golfer with a 20 yard pitch take a full swing, unless playing a flop shot, gives more control in about the balls for me anyway, just have to make sure you don't go to short, as always cue through the ball

[screwball]

screwball:

Just a couple of points now that I understand (I think) what you're doing. First of all I assume you do not feather the ball at all since you start delivering the cue from the rear pause position. If you are feathering at all then you explanation can't be correct unless you feather further BACK from the 2.5" to 4" you say you have at the address position.

Secondly if your tip is only 2.5'-4" at the start of the delivery then that means your longest backswing, even for a power shot, will be only 4" which is definitely not enough for any power shot, but perhaps you don't play too many of those.

The most important thing missing though is if you never have the cue up against the cueball and still for a bit (as in the normal address position at front pause before the final backswing) how do you determine where you are aiming? One of the objectives in the good delivery of a cue is to return the cue back to the EXACT address position where the player has checked his line of aim.

I think you must be doing something else which you haven't explained in order to determine the line of aim of the cue.

The technique you have explained is not something I would ever recommend or teach however if you truly believe it works for you and makes you a better player then by all means continue to use it. However, as has been said above I wouldn't expect you to ever improve much since you really have no real cueing rhythm and also are not accurately determining the aiming line of the cue.

I suspect you must be feathering somewhere in order to determine the line of aim of the cue and I would also think if you are potting any difficult shots at all you must be somehow checking the line of aim, probably in the traditional manner but perhaps with your cue farther away from the cueball, as Cliff did. However Cliff then pulled back the cue and also had a rear pause

Terry

Thanks, Terry. I have always found your comments interesting as well as helpful. I'll work on this new technique a bit more and let you know how I progress. I am a bit familiar with Cliff Thorburn's technique as I had a chance to watch him practice for an hour or so in Ottawa one time and even was lucky enough to play a short exhibition game against him a few years ago. I lost.