self-help for under 30 break players ...

[nrage]

I tend to play them by aiming at the far jaw of the pocket with a little running side on the cue ball. This makes the cue ball make a thinner contact on the black than was initially aimed taking it into the pocket. I also do this quite often for thin cuts, whether low or high on the object ball. I guess that the thicker contact I'm aiming for is easier to judge and keep my eyes on than the thin contact needed for the pot.
Of course side will affect position so it has to be allowed for.

Wouldn't running side thicken the contact on a cut back black? Or do you hit it soft enough that the swerve has taken effect? By running side I'm imagining right hand side for a cut back black into the yellow side black pocket, and the opposite going the other way..

[DandyA]

You're not in the South London area are you? There is only 1 guy I practice with (who is better than me) who would actually be interested in doing something like this with me. He gives me pointers as we play and explains where I've gone wrong etc .. it's really helpful to my game.. if you were nearby to me we could get together and do the same, it would be excellent.

I live in Staines nrage so not far from you ... I normally play at Riley's Staines (with friends) but would be happy to meet you anywhere if you fancy a game ... only problem is I don't have a car so it would need to be somewhere I can get to on the choo-choo ...

[DandyA]

I tend to play them by aiming at the far jaw of the pocket with a little running side on the cue ball. This makes the cue ball make a thinner contact on the black than was initially aimed taking it into the pocket. I also do this quite often for thin cuts, whether low or high on the object ball. I guess that the thicker contact I'm aiming for is easier to judge and keep my eyes on than the thin contact needed for the pot. Of course side will affect position so it has to be allowed for.

Wouldn't running side thicken the contact on a cut back black? Or do you hit it soft enough that the swerve has taken effect? By running side I'm imagining right hand side for a cut back black into the yellow side black pocket, and the opposite going the other way..

I think this is called "helping side" or "outside english" as Americans say ... to take your example nrage, since you are cutting the black to your left, you would apply right side (outside side) as you say ... I think the idea is to use to at fairly close range so deflection or swerve aren't significant but you do get some side-induced throw - right side on the cueball throws the object ball to the left of it's normal line and vice versa if you believe the theory ... hence why vmax aims at the far jaw and the ball throws thinner (ie to the left in your example) ...

here's hoping we don't start another huge debate on side-induced throw and spin transfer! but nevertheless, very interesting comments from vmax ...

[magicman]

I hate to be a killjoy when you're all so happy to throw advice at each other, but this thread is like the blind leading the blind, and putting unnecessary side on the ball is always a no-no. Hit the centre of the white as many times as you possibly can. Only ever play with side when it's absolutely necessary.

[damienlch]

I hate to be a killjoy when you're all so happy to throw advice at each other, but this thread is like the blind leading the blind, and putting unnecessary side on the ball is always a no-no. Hit the centre of the white as many times as you possibly can. Only ever play with side when it's absolutely necessary.

I found the advice offered in the earlier threads to be sound and quite enjoyed the personal experiences shared. Not at all blind leading the blind. Just like your playing with side only when the shot calls for it. Solid excellent advice.

[vmax4steve]

I think this is called "helping side" or "outside english" as Americans say ... to take your example nrage, since you are cutting the black to your left, you would apply right side (outside side) as you say ... I think the idea is to use to at fairly close range so deflection or swerve aren't significant but you do get some side-induced throw - right side on the cueball throws the object ball to the left of it's normal line and vice versa if you believe the theory ... hence why vmax aims at the far jaw and the ball throws thinner (ie to the left in your example) ...

here's hoping we don't start another huge debate on side-induced throw and spin transfer! but nevertheless, very interesting comments from vmax ...

You're right DandyA, it is sometimes called helping side but it's not that side is transferred to the object ball, it's the fact that the cue ball starts off by deflecting away from the point of contact and then starting an arcing trajectory by coming back onto the point of contact and then going away from the point of contact in the other direction.
The shot isn't hit hard, if it was then the arc away from the thicker aim wouldn't take effect before contact. There is no magic involved, it isn't a difficult shot to play but you must remember that you must get a feel for the shot through trial and error to find out just how the cue ball reacts to whatever spin you put on it.

I am suggesting this method for those of you who have trouble seeing the angle of a cut back black as it is easier to judge and see and aim for an angle that isn't so thin as is needed but still make the pot. Everyone knows that potting into a blind pocket is harder because the cue ball, object ball and pocket are not all in your eyeline so the angle is not only difficult to judge but it is harder to also keep your eye on that contact point of the object ball because the contact point of the object ball can also be out of your eyeline whereas a thicker contact point is not and you can keep your eye on it. Also the far jaw might be in your eyeline where the middle of the pocket is not making the angle to the far jaw easier to judge and aim for.

Of course one must practise striking the centre of the cue ball, but practising with side is a deliberate act and there's no reason why you can't do it in conjunction with centre ball striking. Do not address the centre of the cue ball and then pivot the cue to put on side as this is playing across the ball and would interfere with your centre ball, straight cueing practise and will lead to bad habits. The cue must come through straight, the same as it does with centre ball striking, the only difference is that the tip of the cue addresses the side of the cue ball and not the centre. Tip should address the cue ball between the centre and the outside edge.

Forget about the physics involved and just practise potting a 3/4 ball blue off its spot in to the middle pocket. Standing on the green side of the table, put the cue ball pink side of the blue, hand on the table, and aim for the blue to hit the far jaw and play the shot centre striking, hard enough for the cue ball to reach the cushion, so that it does hit the far jaw. Then set up the same shot, aim again for the far jaw but this time play the shot with running side (right hand) and see where the blue ends up. Adjust your aim as needed to pot the blue. Then practise the same shot from the yellow side of the table using left hand side. Then when you have got the feel for the shot, practise some cut back blacks using the same method.
When you have a feel for this shot on both blue and black then start the process again but this time with 3/4 ball blues with the cue ball baulk side so that you are playing with the nap rather than against it.

It's o.k. for others to state that side must not be used before centre ball striking is mastered but if you find yourself on twenty five and are faced with a cut back black that you nearly always miss and this running side method works for you then who's to say you won't go on to make a fifty+. Sometimes it's that one shot you need to make that's holding you back and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[nrage]

You're right DandyA, it is sometimes called helping side but it's not that side is transferred to the object ball, it's the fact that the cue ball starts off by deflecting away from the point of contact and then starting an arcing trajectory by coming back onto the point of contact and then going away from the point of contact in the other direction.
The shot isn't hit hard, if it was then the arc away from the thicker aim wouldn't take effect before contact. There is no magic involved, it isn't a difficult shot to play but you must remember that you must get a feel for the shot through trial and error to find out just how the cue ball reacts to whatever spin you put on it.

Cool, so it as I thought, the shot must be soft enough so the swerve (arc) takes effect before contact. Thanks.

[throtts]

Cool, so it as I thought, the shot must be soft enough so the swerve (arc) takes effect before contact. Thanks.

But you have hit with a certain amount of weight to achieve reaching the pocket on a thin cut back. Never tried this as I have stated in an round about way. I use check and running side when I want to keep ideal position on say the black or pink and thats only around 5% of a session around the black and pink break building area..

[nrage]

But you have hit with a certain amount of weight to achieve reaching the pocket on a thin cut back. Never tried this as I have stated in an round about way. I use check and running side when I want to keep ideal position on say the black or pink and thats only around 5% of a session around the black and pink break building area..

Yeah, it seems to me that learning to judge the effect of side for potting is quite an advanced/difficult thing to do consistently and would take years of practice to get right. So, it's something I'm avoiding for the most part. Instead I am focusing on getting correct position, so I don't /need/ to use side. I think this will have more effect on my break building than learning to use side - but of course both would be ideal.

[Smiffie]

Firstly let me say that this post is not meant to offend anyone, it is just my opinion that you can either listen to or ignore.
We all play the game differently, and different isnt wrong, it’s just different.

That said...........

Let me see if I have this right, - You find it hard to cut a black back when hitting the white in the centre.
So you add running side to the white, but then you aim at the black a bit thicker so that when the side takes the white will hit the black thinner and this will help you pot the black ?

Are you listening to what you are saying ?????

You are aiming to miss the pot, with side ( that you have no idea on how much it will affect the white) in hopes that this will compensate for the intended miss. ? Why not just aim to pot the black ?

This is a thread for those that have trouble making a 30 right ?

In east London this is called "flowers" in this house it is called "twoddle" and in most places it is called BS.

There is only one way to regularly pot a cut back black and that is to practice, and by the time you get that practice you won’t be in this category of player.

At this stage of your game you should hit everything centre white unless you have no option and / or it is absolutely necessary, I suspect that hitting the ball hard like Trump and with the side of Ronnie is holding your game back.

Ask yourself, do you want to knock in a 50 or do you want to screw every ball with side, because at this stage of your game, you can’t do both.

Pick up two balls, one in each hand, touch them together and look at the contact point, it is minuscule, now you think that you can swerve the white ball up to three feet and make contact exactly where it needs to be to make the pot.

Let me tell you something, if you could successfully do this then you should be able to knock in a 100 easy

[DandyA]

Firstly let me say that this post is not meant to offend anyone, it is just my opinion that you can either listen to or ignore.
We all play the game differently, and different isnt wrong, it’s just different.

That said...........

Let me see if I have this right, - You find it hard to cut a black back when hitting the white in the centre.
So you add running side to the white, but then you aim at the black a bit thicker so that when the side takes the white will hit the black thinner and this will help you pot the black ?

Are you listening to what you are saying ?????

You are aiming to miss the pot, with side ( that you have no idea on how much it will affect the white) in hopes that this will compensate for the intended miss. ? Why not just aim to pot the black ?

This is a thread for those that have trouble making a 30 right ?

In east London this is called "flowers" in this house it is called "twoddle" and in most places it is called BS.

There is only one way to regularly pot a cut back black and that is to practice, and by the time you get that practice you won’t be in this category of player.

At this stage of your game you should hit everything centre white unless you have no option and / or it is absolutely necessary, I suspect that hitting the ball hard like Trump and with the side of Ronnie is holding your game back.

Ask yourself, do you want to knock in a 50 or do you want to screw every ball with side, because at this stage of your game, you can’t do both.

Pick up two balls, one in each hand, touch them together and look at the contact point, it is minuscule, now you think that you can swerve the white ball up to three feet and make contact exactly where it needs to be to make the pot.

Let me tell you something, if you could successfully do this then you should be able to knock in a 100 easy

very good post Smiffie, just one thing ... I think it was vmax4steve who mentioned playing with side on cut-back blacks and I believe his high break is well over the 30 level ...

as a 30 level player, I'm very interested to hear vmax's comments (and yours!) although I have to say I personally wouldn't intentionally use side on a snooker table apart from the break-off or a real gimme (say object ball 4 inches from a wide open pocket) ... I personally think I'm quite capable of missing the easiest of pots trying to play centre ball - and trying to use side would make it even easier for me to miss, but that's my opinion ...

the interesting thing about this thread is we're discussing issues relevant to 30 break players and I for one, am enjoying it - thanks for your and everyone's contribution

[DandyA]

You're right DandyA, it is sometimes called helping side but it's not that side is transferred to the object ball, it's the fact that the cue ball starts off by deflecting away from the point of contact and then starting an arcing trajectory by coming back onto the point of contact and then going away from the point of contact in the other direction.
The shot isn't hit hard, if it was then the arc away from the thicker aim wouldn't take effect before contact. There is no magic involved, it isn't a difficult shot to play but you must remember that you must get a feel for the shot through trial and error to find out just how the cue ball reacts to whatever spin you put on it.

I am suggesting this method for those of you who have trouble seeing the angle of a cut back black as it is easier to judge and see and aim for an angle that isn't so thin as is needed but still make the pot. Everyone knows that potting into a blind pocket is harder because the cue ball, object ball and pocket are not all in your eyeline so the angle is not only difficult to judge but it is harder to also keep your eye on that contact point of the object ball because the contact point of the object ball can also be out of your eyeline whereas a thicker contact point is not and you can keep your eye on it. Also the far jaw might be in your eyeline where the middle of the pocket is not making the angle to the far jaw easier to judge and aim for.

Of course one must practise striking the centre of the cue ball, but practising with side is a deliberate act and there's no reason why you can't do it in conjunction with centre ball striking. Do not address the centre of the cue ball and then pivot the cue to put on side as this is playing across the ball and would interfere with your centre ball, straight cueing practise and will lead to bad habits. The cue must come through straight, the same as it does with centre ball striking, the only difference is that the tip of the cue addresses the side of the cue ball and not the centre. Tip should address the cue ball between the centre and the outside edge.

Forget about the physics involved and just practise potting a 3/4 ball blue off its spot in to the middle pocket. Standing on the green side of the table, put the cue ball pink side of the blue, hand on the table, and aim for the blue to hit the far jaw and play the shot centre striking, hard enough for the cue ball to reach the cushion, so that it does hit the far jaw. Then set up the same shot, aim again for the far jaw but this time play the shot with running side (right hand) and see where the blue ends up. Adjust your aim as needed to pot the blue. Then practise the same shot from the yellow side of the table using left hand side. Then when you have got the feel for the shot, practise some cut back blacks using the same method.
When you have a feel for this shot on both blue and black then start the process again but this time with 3/4 ball blues with the cue ball baulk side so that you are playing with the nap rather than against it.

It's o.k. for others to state that side must not be used before centre ball striking is mastered but if you find yourself on twenty five and are faced with a cut back black that you nearly always miss and this running side method works for you then who's to say you won't go on to make a fifty+. Sometimes it's that one shot you need to make that's holding you back and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

yep, very interesting to hear your thoughts vmax, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed posting ... I'm not sure helping side will work for me although I may well try it next time I've left myself a difficult cut-back black ... although on blues, I'm normally fine whatever the angle ...

another question for you though ... blue on it's spot, white (as in your example) green side towards the black end of the table ... it's a 3/4 pot or slightly thinner, you can get your hand on the table, white is say a bit over 2ft from the blue ... how would you play that to return the white to say the pink spot area ... whenever I play it, the white ends up hitting the soggy cushions too close to the yellow pocket and dies

[Smiffie]

very good post Smiffie, just one thing ... I think it was vmax4steve who mentioned playing with side on cut-back blacks and I believe his high break is well over the 30 level ...

And Steve was right in what he said, to aid positioning you can use side, I use side as much as the next guy, in fact when we used to play in Green gate 30 - 35 years ago Lee Tucker and I used to play that if it didn't have side the pot didn't count ( to make it more interesting)

But this is advice for a 30 break player who wants to progress, and a 30 break player isn't "reliably" capable of using side to compensate for intentional miss. IMHO.

To run the white around the angles after potting the black you have to apply side to the white, this means you need to aim to miss the pocket ( as Steve said ) and this is a natural shot for players that can play with side without thinking of where it hit the white or how much to put on, it is a natural thought process.

But, this isn't any good for you, what you need to know is. Dont hit the ball hard, and don't use side, don't worry it'll come.

[ace man]

A 30 break without flukes and lucky cannons requires at least 8 clean pots with good position. It is very unlikely that someone who is below that number he can leave himself almost ideal angle 8 times in a row around the black/pink area so that no side and virtually no power is required at all. It is enough that only 1 of those 8 shots may require for e.g. reverse side with screw or some plain ball power stun. Then what?
I think not knowing any type of shot is a luxury one cannot afford if he wants to score a big break. Side might not even be the issue. Could be a shot with the rest or the cue ball could be glued to the cushion.

[vmax4steve]

yep, very interesting to hear your thoughts vmax, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed posting ... I'm not sure helping side will work for me although I may well try it next time I've left myself a difficult cut-back black ... although on blues, I'm normally fine whatever the angle ...

another question for you though ... blue on it's spot, white (as in your example) green side towards the black end of the table ... it's a 3/4 pot or slightly thinner, you can get your hand on the table, white is say a bit over 2ft from the blue ... how would you play that to return the white to say the pink spot area ... whenever I play it, the white ends up hitting the soggy cushions too close to the yellow pocket and dies

I'm not asking you to play middle pocket blues with side to help you pot them, this is just a practise exercise to enable you to get used to playing with side and find out just how much you have to compensate in your aiming for the throw of the cue ball. It's a very easy shot to play as the compensation needed is minimal but playing this shot for ten minutes after you have finished your games with friends will be beneficial to your understanding.

As for that shot on the blue look at this video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn89OsbJigU

Any angle less than the one shown in the video would be very hard to play in and out of baulk so I would play those shots with a soft screw and leave a longer pot rather than try to blast it around the angles at extreme pace.

As for the cut back blacks here is a very good tip.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WActC0bJ55k