self-help for under 30 break players ...

[throtts]

I think not knowing any type of shot is a luxury one cannot afford if he wants to score a big break. Side might not even be the issue. Could be a shot with the rest or the cue ball could be glued to the cushion.

Yes, very true..

Yesterday evening I played a cut back on the black and at the same time thought about this thread. There were just 2 reds left. I played the cue ball up and down in and out of baulk in between the green and brown using the 6 o clock screw (no side), I hit around 33% of the black. The cue ball did arc after hitting the black and I did execute the pot and get on one of the reds. At no point did I consider potting the black with side, no way..

If somehow it works for some others then good luck to them.

[DandyA]

A 30 break without flukes and lucky cannons requires at least 8 clean pots with good position. It is very unlikely that someone who is below that number he can leave himself almost ideal angle 8 times in a row around the black/pink area so that no side and virtually no power is required at all. It is enough that only 1 of those 8 shots may require for e.g. reverse side with screw or some plain ball power stun. Then what?
I think not knowing any type of shot is a luxury one cannot afford if he wants to score a big break. Side might not even be the issue. Could be a shot with the rest or the cue ball could be glued to the cushion.

the best I've ever done is a 10 balls in a row but it was only maybe 18 points (didn't count it cos I knew it wasn't going anywhere) ... my HB of 31 was 9 balls ...

I do feel the number of balls is important ... as I try to improve I would have been happy with say a few 4 or 5 ball sequences but now I'm disappointed if I don't hit 5 or 6 balls during a 3 or 4 hour playing session ... the higher (in terms of balls potted) the better my chance of beating my HB ...

I appreciate your posting ace man although reverse screwback with side is way beyond my ability and playing with a rest is very iffy ... I have split the pack 5 times now ... twice from the blue, twice from low on the black (stun shot) and once from high on the black (top spin off the black cushion) ... very surprised I got the last one cos I was hitting far harder than my comfort zone ...

but never got on anything easy ... just two off straight shots into the yellow and green pockets - got close but not close enough

[DandyA]

And Steve was right in what he said, to aid positioning you can use side, I use side as much as the next guy, in fact when we used to play in Green gate 30 - 35 years ago Lee Tucker and I used to play that if it didn't have side the pot didn't count ( to make it more interesting)

But this is advice for a 30 break player who wants to progress, and a 30 break player isn't "reliably" capable of using side to compensate for intentional miss. IMHO.

To run the white around the angles after potting the black you have to apply side to the white, this means you need to aim to miss the pocket ( as Steve said ) and this is a natural shot for players that can play with side without thinking of where it hit the white or how much to put on, it is a natural thought process.

But, this isn't any good for you, what you need to know is. Dont hit the ball hard, and don't use side, don't worry it'll come.

I'm not asking you to play middle pocket blues with side to help you pot them, this is just a practise exercise to enable you to get used to playing with side and find out just how much you have to compensate in your aiming for the throw of the cue ball. It's a very easy shot to play as the compensation needed is minimal but playing this shot for ten minutes after you have finished your games with friends will be beneficial to your understanding.

As for that shot on the blue look at this video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn89OsbJigU

Any angle less than the one shown in the video would be very hard to play in and out of baulk so I would play those shots with a soft screw and leave a longer pot rather than try to blast it around the angles at extreme pace.

As for the cut back blacks here is a very good tip.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WActC0bJ55k

thanks Smiffie and vmax ... for sharing your knowledge, it's very interesting to hear and will certainly help me and hopefully others reading this thread ...

I thought the "cut back blacks" video was particularly interesting ... I guess I tend to do this naturally when playing UK 8ball pool but not on a more "scary" snooker table but it's good advice ...

Any advice on the long straight blue? When it came up for discussion on TSF a few months ago, I tried it and hit 4 of 5 which I was pleased with (the 4th jawed) ... I haven't tried it recently but I suspect I'll be rubbish, I have no confidence in straight pots at the moment, any advice?

[vmax4steve]

Any advice on the long straight blue? When it came up for discussion on TSF a few months ago, I tried it and hit 4 of 5 which I was pleased with (the 4th jawed) ... I haven't tried it recently but I suspect I'll be rubbish, I have no confidence in straight pots at the moment, any advice?

Four out of five is pretty damn good. Nothing I can say will make you better than that.

[ace man]

I appreciate your posting ace man although reverse screwback with side is way beyond my ability and playing with a rest is very iffy ... I have split the pack 5 times now ... twice from the blue, twice from low on the black (stun shot) and once from high on the black (top spin off the black cushion) ... very surprised I got the last one cos I was hitting far harder than my comfort zone ...

Please lose this 'way beyond my ability' attitude. Any shot is well within your ability, it is just that you haven't practiced some (many?) of them nearly enough so naturally you will find them more difficult than they really are.

[nrage]

Four out of five is pretty damn good. Nothing I can say will make you better than that.

Except; practice, practice, practice

[nrage]

Please lose this 'way beyond my ability' attitude. Any shot is well within your ability, it is just that you haven't practiced some (many?) of them nearly enough so naturally you will find them more difficult than they really are.

Practice will definitely make a difference, but... adding power, screw, or side will always lower the chance of a shot coming off vs playing without, so if you're taking on a 5/10 shot, then you add power, screw or side you will always make it something like a 3/10 or less as a result.

That said, if I'm playing a friendly with a practice partner I'll make the attempt, if necessary for position - because that's why/what I'm practicing. In a match where I prefer to keep things tight (in order to actually win) I might make the pot as easy as possible and leave a harder next red, or play safe.

[ace man]

Practice will definitely make a difference, but... adding power, screw, or side will always lower the chance of a shot coming off vs playing without, so if you're taking on a 5/10 shot, then you add power, screw or side you will always make it something like a 3/10 or less as a result.

That said, if I'm playing a friendly with a practice partner I'll make the attempt, if necessary for position - because that's why/what I'm practicing. In a match where I prefer to keep things tight (in order to actually win) I might make the pot as easy as possible and leave a harder next red, or play safe.

Fair enough, one should play smart. However, the shot in question was screw back with reverse side I believe. Let's assume it is really needed or the break ends at 24. Should one go for it? Normal 10 out of 10 short range pot but this time with screw and side added, not much power required. Surely, it is not a 10 out of 10 shot anymore (with practice it should be), but it can't possibly be more difficult than average long pot with plain ball stun.
5 out of 10 shot might be a good candidate for safety if it is not a shot to nothing. I was just pointing out that getting negative severely limits one's progress.

[nrage]

Fair enough, one should play smart. However, the shot in question was screw back with reverse side I believe. Let's assume it is really needed or the break ends at 24. Should one go for it? Normal 10 out of 10 short range pot but this time with screw and side added, not much power required. Surely, it is not a 10 out of 10 shot anymore (with practice it should be), but it can't possibly be more difficult than average long pot with plain ball stun.
5 out of 10 shot might be a good candidate for safety if it is not a shot to nothing. I was just pointing out that getting negative severely limits one's progress.

I think the first assumption is wrong Even a short range pot is not a 10/10 shot for a sub-30 break player, it's these shots I sometimes miss for a variety of reasons (cueing, pressure, etc). Ultimately you're right tho, we've got to practice the harder shots, and back ourselves to make them if/when they arise.. but, for many of us there are still a lot of more basic shots we need to practice, so the more advanced ones don't get enough practice time .. in which case they're going to remain a less than 5/10 shot which we only take on in practice.

[vmax4steve]

It's all well and good wanting to try to get the correct position rather than learn to use side but we don't play on tables with ultra fine cloths and table heaters like the pros do so the conditions we are up against are not always the same so getting the pace of the shot right all the time is really not on.
Like aceman said if you find yourself on 24 faced with a dead straight black off its spot and the option you keep taking is to roll it in and then play safe then you will never get any better. Learn to play a screw shot with reverse side and you can then go on to make that 50+ that you are aiming for.
Side is only difficult if you are using it without knowing that the cue ball deflects when struck which has to be compensated for and there are many posts on the coaching threads explaining this. Also I find it amazing that players who are sub 30 breakers will break off, which is a nine foot distance shot, using running side to clip the outside red of the pack taking the cue ball around the angles inside the blue and into baulk behind the green/yellow yet will not attempt a 1/2 ball black off its spot from two feet away using side in order to gain position because they feel its above their ability.

Another thing, my ability is not great for most of the time I suffer from the same faults that all you sub thirty breakers suffer from. I have made a total clearance in practise, many, many hundreds in the line up and have a best match break of 86, yet when at my worst I can play all night and not string three balls together.
You all know the basics and can do them, if you couldn't then you wouldn't be capable of a twenty break, so what you have to do is learn to recognise your faults and correct them, so ask your playing/practise partners to watch you and point out the obvious ones and do the same for them.

[Camellia]

A good friend of mine—a reformed player—once told me that in his hound dog days, he could walk into a room of women, sniff out his prey, and easily schedule two hook-ups before the night’s end. His secret? He targeted the extremes—the under-confident and overconfident.

[jaikba]

You're right DandyA, it is sometimes called helping side but it's not that side is transferred to the object ball, it's the fact that the cue ball starts off by deflecting away from the point of contact and then starting an arcing trajectory by coming back onto the point of contact and then going away from the point of contact in the other direction.
The shot isn't hit hard, if it was then the arc away from the thicker aim wouldn't take effect before contact. There is no magic involved, it isn't a difficult shot to play but you must remember that you must get a feel for the shot through trial and error to find out just how the cue ball reacts to whatever spin you put on it.

I am suggesting this method for those of you who have trouble seeing the angle of a cut back black as it is easier to judge and see and aim for an angle that isn't so thin as is needed but still make the pot. Everyone knows that potting into a blind pocket is harder because the cue ball, object ball and pocket are not all in your eyeline so the angle is not only difficult to judge but it is harder to also keep your eye on that contact point of the object ball because the contact point of the object ball can also be out of your eyeline whereas a thicker contact point is not and you can keep your eye on it. Also the far jaw might be in your eyeline where the middle of the pocket is not making the angle to the far jaw easier to judge and aim for.

Of course one must practise striking the centre of the cue ball, but practising with side is a deliberate act and there's no reason why you can't do it in conjunction with centre ball striking. Do not address the centre of the cue ball and then pivot the cue to put on side as this is playing across the ball and would interfere with your centre ball, straight cueing practise and will lead to bad habits. The cue must come through straight, the same as it does with centre ball striking, the only difference is that the tip of the cue addresses the side of the cue ball and not the centre. Tip should address the cue ball between the centre and the outside edge.

Forget about the physics involved and just practise potting a 3/4 ball blue off its spot in to the middle pocket. Standing on the green sideof the table, put the cue ball pink side of the blue, hand on the table, and aim for the blue to hit the far jaw and play the shot centre striking, hard enough for the cue ball to reach the cushion, so that it does hit the far jaw. Then set up the same shot, aim again for the far jaw but this time play the shot with running side (right hand) and see where the blue ends up. Adjust your aim as needed to pot the blue. Then practise the same shot from the yellow side of the table using left hand side. Then when you have got the feel for the shot, practise some cut back blacks using the same method.
When you have a feel for this shot on both blue and black then start the process again but this time with 3/4 ball blues with the cue ball baulk side so that you are playing with the nap rather than against it.

It's o.k. for others to state that side must not be used before centre ball striking is mastered but if you find yourself on twenty five and are faced with a cut back black that you nearly always miss and this running side method works for you then who's to say you won't go on to make a fifty+. Sometimes it's that one shot you need to make that's holding you back and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Truest words ever spoken, anybody who tells a beginner to play
really needs to stop giving advice, you are very very wrong.

[Smiffie]

Truest words ever spoken, anybody who tells a beginner to play
really needs to stop giving advice, you are very very wrong.

I got the " truest words ever spoken" but the rest is contradictory ?

Its amazing how one added or missing word can change a sentence from sense to nonsense ( no insult intended )

Did you miss out a word ?

And "WHO" is very very wrong ?

AND.................. I read it 10 times Hahhahahahahahaha

[jaikba]

It meant to say play with side lol Damn phone, I'm a 50 plus player therefore I shouldn't even be posting here but to use side when you can't make 30 is quite wrong in my opinion. I play with a good few century break players and they very rarely play with side, I'm just back playing after about ten years and my first game back I made 42 just dodging away with pinks and blacks, never used side once. Learn about getting the cue ball the right side of the next ball and control of pace. Like I say I read this whole thread and I don't wish to offend anybody when I say this but the scourge of every snooker club are 'side junkies', they can't make a 30 break and can't play a pot plain ball. Avoid these people at all costs if you want to be a half decent player.

[lesedwards]

Mine is also 31. I find my problem is one day I make everything and then the next day I cannot make anything. I bought the Snooker Gym in Nov and I have my own table and have been practicing at least 2 hours a day and I feel like I am getting worse. I guess you could say I am just plain frustrated.