Playing like the Pros?

[Particle Physics]

I know the perceived wisdom is that one should never try and copy the playing style of a professional player, but has anyone done this, and with success? I was thinking of taking up the Hendry style of his mid career. I tried it tonight on the baby table and it felt so solid, so little movement body, massive balls in my eyes, head up vision of the object ball and pocket, slow deliberate feathers, quite open handed at the back, and the elbow drops on line, not left or right. It's tough on the body mind, a bit uncomfortable. But boy does it work. Potting is a dream. It feels like everything has been slowed and calmed down, mental and physical, like one is in a quiet, peaceful potting zone.

I'll have to wait to test it tomorrow at practice. Got a match tomorrow night, and not sure whether to adopt it then. Your thoughts on adopting a style from someone else, pro or otherwise gents please.

[Blanchon147]

Don't do it!! I have tried to copy pros for years and I got nowhere, I found that I was always thinking about the pro I was copying and not about the pot.

You might be different but when I change my technique I would play brilliant then the next day awful. Basically I recommend you stick to your natural game.

[Terry Davidson]

particle:

This is not recommended and is probably one of the worst things you can do.

But not to worry, you only THINK you are copying Hendry. I assume you've looked at some of his videos from the 90's and what you describe as his technique has one major difference. When next you look at one of his videos watch his elbow on the backswing and delivery very closely and you will see it drops in towards the middle of his back on the backswing and then comes back up on the delivery. This is definitely not a good thing although at that age he was able to coordinate that extra movement.

If you have found an ALMOST clone style which works for you then stick with it, but don't try it once and say 'this is the magic bullet!!!' because you have to give it at least a month before you can make a knowledgeable judgement about it. You might have been doing something else which caused you to play better, like perhaps eliminated upper body movement or else driving through the cueball better.

Terry

[narl]

Playing like the Pros?

I find it hard to copy anyone though the way I play has changed quite a bit. Started to minimise my backswing which obviously helps with getting the cue through straight. Same deal with using the rest, took a tip from one of the Joe Davis books and made the backswing much more compact with a longer follow through and it's helped quite a bit.

Still have some problems sizing up angles properly when around the black spot, because of that I generally try and make more use of the blue and pink. Any tips on judging angles terry?

[Particle Physics]

I find it hard to copy anyone though the way I play has changed quite a bit. Started to minimise my backswing which obviously helps with getting the cue through straight. Same deal with using the rest, took a tip from one of the Joe Davis books and made the backswing much more compact with a longer follow through and it's helped quite a bit.

Still have some problems sizing up angles properly when around the black spot, because of that I generally try and make more use of the blue and pink. Any tips on judging angles terry?

I find judging blacks difficult when half way up the cushion, say a couple inches off it, between the black and blue pockets. The way round this is to really get down. With too high up a cue action, you see two planes and as such, you're looking between those planes and conclude the wrong angle. I found I needed to get closer to the surface.

[Particle Physics]

particle:

This is not recommended and is probably one of the worst things you can do.

But not to worry, you only THINK you are copying Hendry. I assume you've looked at some of his videos from the 90's and what you describe as his technique has one major difference. When next you look at one of his videos watch his elbow on the backswing and delivery very closely and you will see it drops in towards the middle of his back on the backswing and then comes back up on the delivery. This is definitely not a good thing although at that age he was able to coordinate that extra movement.

If you have found an ALMOST clone style which works for you then stick with it, but don't try it once and say 'this is the magic bullet!!!' because you have to give it at least a month before you can make a knowledgeable judgement about it. You might have been doing something else which caused you to play better, like perhaps eliminated upper body movement or else driving through the cueball better.

Terry

I did notice that Terry, and found it quite strange, but it was just a quirk with him. Other folk do something similar, dipping the elbow inside the backswing and then doing the same thing on the shot, pushing the cue out to the right and missing the pot.

[ace man]

I would copy shot selection and strategy definitely. Plenty to learn there. After all, many club players play more aggressive than the best potting pros, as if they were actually better...

[Particle Physics]

particle:

This is not recommended and is probably one of the worst things you can do.

But not to worry, you only THINK you are copying Hendry. I assume you've looked at some of his videos from the 90's and what you describe as his technique has one major difference. When next you look at one of his videos watch his elbow on the backswing and delivery very closely and you will see it drops in towards the middle of his back on the backswing and then comes back up on the delivery. This is definitely not a good thing although at that age he was able to coordinate that extra movement.

If you have found an ALMOST clone style which works for you then stick with it, but don't try it once and say 'this is the magic bullet!!!' because you have to give it at least a month before you can make a knowledgeable judgement about it. You might have been doing something else which caused you to play better, like perhaps eliminated upper body movement or else driving through the cueball better.

Terry

You may be right my friend. I may just be borrowing a few bits from Hendry, like the cue almost underneath the armpit, right on the edge of the pectoralis major. Foot in line is something lots of players do, and something you've advised me to do, so I'll call that playing like coach! L foot pointing out to the left, say five minutes to the hour, Hendry and ROS amongst players do this. More space between cue and hip, maybe a Hendry thing. Off to the club soon, to see how it works.

[thelongbomber]

I have done this and the thing to remember is not to copy their stance but to copy their eyes, feathering and various pauses. I have done this and it does work. You can sense the rhythm, timing, and tempo that each of them goes through.

[thelongbomber]

Oh, and when doing the above suggestion, also (very important), copy the distance between tip and CB when they come down into address position. You will notice JH slides his hand forward on all shots, and the distance between tip and CB is more than other players.

[Terry Davidson]

I have always maintained and coached that each and every player will have his own technique which will be slightly different from every other player. However, that said, it would do EVERY player to copy the 4 or 5 common things the top pros do, namely:

1. No upper body movement from when the bridge hits the table until the end of the delivery (not even ONE MILLIMETER).
2. Loose grip maintained until the stike
3. Front pause, slow backswing and don't abruptly accelerate the cue from the rear pause (or end of backswing if no rear pause).
4. Drive or accelerate through the cueball until the back of the grip hand hits the chest (dropping the elbow on shots over medium pace).
5. Have a final pause at the end of the delivery until the ball hits the pocket or cushion, keeping everything STILL.

Outside of these 5 important points, how you stand, how you drop into the shot (hopefully exactly verticle), how far the 'V' of the bridge is from the cueball, where you grip the cue, the rhythm, where the cue is under the chin, 'preferred or dominant' eye theory, where the eyes are focused at time of strike and a host of other things are really up to the individual and although each one is important every player will have their own technique.

The best advice I can give is to keep it very simple ('KISS' principle) with the less moving parts to coordinate the better, so try and keep the elbow stable and over (or nearly over) the butt of the cue, avoid turning the wrist joint during the delivery, have the eyes on the object ball at time of strike (although even some pros look at the cueball on some shots at time of strike), cock the wrist so the long straight bone in the forearm is directly over the butt of the cue (or nearly so).

Let's face it, your objective is to get the cue back to your EXACT address position at the EXACT time of strike and the easiest way to do this is to have an absolute minimum of moving parts. After the strike is not as important, although it helps if you can deliver the cue exactly straight right to the end of the delivery, but not many of us (including pros on power shots) can do this perfectly.

I've watched Higgins doing a power screw with side on the black when he ended up straight in on the black and indeed, the tip of his cue did end up to the left a bit when his hand hit his chest BUT NOT BEFORE THAT. This is where most of us amateurs fall down a bit, on power shots gripping the cue prematurely and in a right-handed player this will take the tip towards the left and we cue across the white. Not Good.

Terry

[throtts]

Great post, Terry...Yes , your 5 points are the must's haves. Its amazing when you practice and things are not quite right if you recompose and take a minute out to address those 5 points you can instantly play better..It's at that point when your game advances quickly. Knowing where your going wrong is the key...

[Particle Physics]

I have always maintained and coached that each and every player will have his own technique which will be slightly different from every other player. However, that said, it would do EVERY player to copy the 4 or 5 common things the top pros do, namely:

1. No upper body movement from when the bridge hits the table until the end of the delivery (not even ONE MILLIMETER).
2. Loose grip maintained until the stike
3. Front pause, slow backswing and don't abruptly accelerate the cue from the rear pause (or end of backswing if no rear pause).
4. Drive or accelerate through the cueball until the back of the grip hand hits the chest (dropping the elbow on shots over medium pace).
5. Have a final pause at the end of the delivery until the ball hits the pocket or cushion, keeping everything STILL.

Outside of these 5 important points, how you stand, how you drop into the shot (hopefully exactly verticle), how far the 'V' of the bridge is from the cueball, where you grip the cue, the rhythm, where the cue is under the chin, 'preferred or dominant' eye theory, where the eyes are focused at time of strike and a host of other things are really up to the individual and although each one is important every player will have their own technique.

The best advice I can give is to keep it very simple ('KISS' principle) with the less moving parts to coordinate the better, so try and keep the elbow stable and over (or nearly over) the butt of the cue, avoid turning the wrist joint during the delivery, have the eyes on the object ball at time of strike (although even some pros look at the cueball on some shots at time of strike), cock the wrist so the long straight bone in the forearm is directly over the butt of the cue (or nearly so).

Let's face it, your objective is to get the cue back to your EXACT address position at the EXACT time of strike and the easiest way to do this is to have an absolute minimum of moving parts. After the strike is not as important, although it helps if you can deliver the cue exactly straight right to the end of the delivery, but not many of us (including pros on power shots) can do this perfectly.

I've watched Higgins doing a power screw with side on the black when he ended up straight in on the black and indeed, the tip of his cue did end up to the left a bit when his hand hit his chest BUT NOT BEFORE THAT. This is where most of us amateurs fall down a bit, on power shots gripping the cue prematurely and in a right-handed player this will take the tip towards the left and we cue across the white. Not Good.

Terry

T, I thought you advocated the closed 'ring' grip on the cue throughout, or am I mixing you up with someone else?

[nrage]

T, I thought you advocated the closed 'ring' grip on the cue throughout, or am I mixing you up with someone else?

Which part of his post that you quoted contradicts this? IIRC When Terry says "loose grip" he means a grip with the ring formed by the first finger and thumb, or first and 2nd finger and thumb in contact for the entire delivery but with no air-gap. The grip should not apply any additional pressure on the cue at least until after the tip strikes the white. If someone were to stand behind you and pull the butt of the cue it would slide out of your hand, that's how little pressure should be applied.

[Terry Davidson]

PP:

I teach using what's called the 'ring grip' which means either the forefinger or else the first two fingers or even just the second finger are the only fingers which 'hold' the cue and the thumb should hang straight down and only the top of the thumb will apply any pressure at all in concert with whichever finger you are using.

However, recently I've come to the conclusion that any grip at all is good AS LONG AS THE PLAYER DOESN'T INCREASE THE GRIP PRESSURE BEFORE THE STRIKE OF THE CUEBALL. Ronnie uses the second and third finger with his grip, Steve Davis is (or was anyway) experimenting and did use the 'Alex Higgins grip' which is with the back 3 fingers and the thumb and forefinger hanging straight down and applying no pressure. Ronnie doesn't use the forefinger at all except nearer the end of his backswing. Steve Davis admitted the back 3 finger grip has to entail a shorter backswing and therefore a loss of power but with the advantage of greater accuracy.

The 'ideal' grip is to use the top of the forefinger and thumb holding the cue and the back 3 fingers just resting on the butt. You do not squeeze the butt but rather just hold it at the top of these two and not have any 'air gap' between the butt and the web between the thumb and forefinger.

The actual CONFIGURATION of the grip is not so important as the necessity to maintain the same pressure on the butt throughout the delivery and try not to increase that pressure until WELL AFTER the cueball has been struck and ideally at the time the back of the grip hand thumb strikes the chest. This is quite hard for a lot of players to achieve and so I advocate to not increase the grip pressure until AFTER the cueball has been struck. This will prevent the twisting of the wrist which a lot of players do unconciously in order to give the back 2 fingers a better puchase on the butt.

In fact, I use the 2nd finger grip at the start of a match for a couple of frames as it seems to help me drive through the cueball better without thinking about it and then when I feel I'm in the 'groove' I switch to a 2 finger grip, bringing the forefinger into it. Sometimes I use just the forefinger and thumb, but I'm still working on finding my own 'ideal' grip.

But yesterday I found out I could use the 4 finger grip as long as I kept it loose and just concentrated on driving through to the chest on EVERY shot but trying not to increase the grip pressure until the hand hits the chest. In order to do this on shots above medium power I found I was unconciously increasing the length of the backswing and also introducing a slight rear pause (never had one) automatically...both very good things to do

Terry