how to get rid of the chicken wing

[Slh]

I'm going to follow your advices.
I will move my left foot forward because at the moment I have both feet parallel, I also will try to put my left elbow on the table and to bent it.
Nrage:
I'm not sure if I understood your second point. Are you suggesting to have the wrist a little cocked forward like Neil Robertson? If you do, I don't like that grip because I felt much more tension in my hand.

Another thing I have noticed: my back is not perfectly straight but it is bent a little like Stephen Maguire... this could be another reason for the "chicken wing"?

[nrage]

Nrage:
I'm not sure if I understood your second point. Are you suggesting to have the wrist a little cocked forward like Neil Robertson? If you do, I don't like that grip because I felt much more tension in my hand.

"cocked forward"? No, not forward, assuming by forward you mean in the direction you're pointing the cue.

Imagine you're looking at yourself from the position of the pocket on a straight pot, and imagine you can see through your head and chest to your grip forearm. What you should see is that it is perfectly vertical, directly above the cue. In order for that to be the case, the hand/fingers must go out away from the body and around the cue, and the cue must sit on the bed of the fingers, on the first finger pad or join from the tips. The line down the outside of the forearm, will cock outwards at the wrist, and the thumb (unless curled under the cue) will point directly at the floor.

This is how I try to grip the cue now. Previously if you looked at my grip hand you would have seen a straight line down the outside of my grip forearm, and hand, and the cue sitting inside the vertical line of the forearm. My thumb was pointing roughly 45 degrees down and inward/toward me.

There is nothing truly wrong with gripping the cue as I used to, however in my case it meant my elbow was outside the line of aim/cue. I found adding the wrist cock moved my elbow in line, and this improved my accuracy with power/elbow drop.

[rimmer10]

try and run the cue more to the inside on your chest contact point. let me explain. like you i have been trying for a long time to get my shoulder and my elbow right over the line of aim. but no matter how hard i tried it never felt comfortable and if i didnt put all my focus on it they would start to stick out again almost immediately. to cut a long story short after moving the point of contact on my chest from right over my right nipple to about an inch to the inside of it everything else fell into place. my shoulder/elbow alignment is absolutely over the line of aim now and whats more important i can hold this stance now for as long as i want where before my right shoulder would get tired after only a few seconds and would start to drop to the outside of the line of aim. also by doing so i noticed that my brigde arm stretches out more naturally which tucks my left shoulder nicely against my left cheek. one more tip, if you are left eye dominant and right handed try a slight boxer stance instead of being square to the shot

[Slh]

Recently I tried all the advices I received in this thread ( like bending the left elbow and using a more "boxer" stance).
Now the elbow seems in line, even though my elbow is inside of my body in some situation.
Now the elbow is in this position, is it correct?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/img1092ou.jpg/

[CoachGavin]

To me your shoulder does not seem behind your head. Your elbow will follow behind the shoulder. Get your shoulder up and behind your head and the elbow will also be online. Need a front view picture too I reckon.

[Terry Davidson]

Agree with Gavin. Your right shoulder looks quite a bit outside your head. It should be up and behind the head when viewed from the front head-on. To achieve that you must get your left armpit down as far as it will go and to do that bend the left leg more.

Post up a head-on shot as that will really help here

Terry

[nrage]

Compare your stance to this:
http://www.standard.co.uk/pasportsfe...w-7668042.html

I notice that your chest is quite flat/level, much like Williams which is why I chose him as an example. Notice from front on that you cannot see his shoulder and the elbow appears right above his head.

It looks like your cue is too far underneath your body, and needs to come out toward your armpit more. I suspect this is where you had it before and your elbow will stick out if you do that. To resolve that try changing the angle of your body by moving your front foot left/right back/forward until the elbow and shoulder are behind the head on the line of the shot. At the moment the line of the shot runs under your chest, it should run across the front of it instead.

[Slh]

I don't understand how can you have the right shoulder behind your head if the natural anatomy of the human body says the head is actually at the left of the right shoulder. Just kidding.
For reference, from front my shoulder is like Jamie Cope. His arm is oblique, mine is not ( as the pic shows is straight) but I have the shoulder, as you said, not behind the head. Looks like he doesn't have the shoulder behind his head too.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...23_cope416.jpg

For years I tried to fight the chicken wing by pulling my arm near my body, this resulted in great strain in my arm and a very rigid stroke.
I never had any coaching and I tried to learn the stance by watching videos on youtube.
I used this video for the stance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X08w5E5RbJY

[Terry Davidson]

slh:

For starters, have a look at all the top pros in a head-on shot and you will notice you cannot see ANY PART of their grip arm shoulder as it's hidden directly behind the head.

In your case you have your shoulders much more square to the shot and they shouldn't be (unless you want to play as inconsistently as Jamie Cope that is). The way to achieve this is to have your stance so the left foot is a bit in front of the right foot (not a lot, just 3-4in) then SWIVEL THE HIPS as you get down into the address position, moving the hips to the LEFT and BACK as much as you can so the back is straight (BUT NOT LEVEL).

You now have to twist the spine such that you get your LEFT ARMPIT as far forward as you can (keep the bridge arm as straight as possible without causing any strain, perhaps bent 10-20degrees) and get that left armpit down as far into the table as you can and I mean down so far that it might be resting on the rail/cushion or damned close to that.

This in turn will raise the right shoulder way up as far as possible given your own individual physique and also bring it into alignment directly behind the head. With this set-up you will have the chin, head, shoulder and elbow directly over the butt of the cue and it will greatly reduce the need to coordinate a misaligned element so you can deliver the cue straight.

Keep in mind the 'KISS' principle (Keep It Stupid Simple) or if you're having a hard time getting this then it becomes 'Keep It Simple - Stupid' and you should get as near to this ideal set-up as you possibly can WITHOUT causing any discomfort. You might notice a little discomfort and strain at first as your muscles and ligaments get used to this new set-up but keep working at it until you get it and then you can relax whatever part is a little strained.

A really good way to check on this is to get down into this 'ideal' position in front of a mirror (to confirm you are actually there) and then close your eyes and stay in that same position for at least 2 minutes and note which part of your body starts to feel strained. It could be your legs, left shoulder, right shoulder, right upper arm, or even the base of the neck and that would be the part you have to relax a little. If it's the legs try pointing the toes out a bit, if it's the neck try turning the head a bit to the right (a bonus if your preferred eye is your left), if it's the left shoulder then bend the bridge forearm a bit more so you can place some weight on the left elbow and 'drive' it into the bed of the table.

Terry

[Slh]

slh:

For starters, have a look at all the top pros in a head-on shot and you will notice you cannot see ANY PART of their grip arm shoulder as it's hidden directly behind the head.

In your case you have your shoulders much more square to the shot and they shouldn't be (unless you want to play as inconsistently as Jamie Cope that is). The way to achieve this is to have your stance so the left foot is a bit in front of the right foot (not a lot, just 3-4in) then SWIVEL THE HIPS as you get down into the address position, moving the hips to the LEFT and BACK as much as you can so the back is straight (BUT NOT LEVEL).

You now have to twist the spine such that you get your LEFT ARMPIT as far forward as you can (keep the bridge arm as straight as possible without causing any strain, perhaps bent 10-20degrees) and get that left armpit down as far into the table as you can and I mean down so far that it might be resting on the rail/cushion or damned close to that.

This in turn will raise the right shoulder way up as far as possible given your own individual physique and also bring it into alignment directly behind the head. With this set-up you will have the chin, head, shoulder and elbow directly over the butt of the cue and it will greatly reduce the need to coordinate a misaligned element so you can deliver the cue straight.

Keep in mind the 'KISS' principle (Keep It Stupid Simple) or if you're having a hard time getting this then it becomes 'Keep It Simple - Stupid' and you should get as near to this ideal set-up as you possibly can WITHOUT causing any discomfort. You might notice a little discomfort and strain at first as your muscles and ligaments get used to this new set-up but keep working at it until you get it and then you can relax whatever part is a little strained.

A really good way to check on this is to get down into this 'ideal' position in front of a mirror (to confirm you are actually there) and then close your eyes and stay in that same position for at least 2 minutes and note which part of your body starts to feel strained. It could be your legs, left shoulder, right shoulder, right upper arm, or even the base of the neck and that would be the part you have to relax a little. If it's the legs try pointing the toes out a bit, if it's the neck try turning the head a bit to the right (a bonus if your preferred eye is your left), if it's the left shoulder then bend the bridge forearm a bit more so you can place some weight on the left elbow and 'drive' it into the bed of the table.

Terry

thanks Terry for this enlightening post. I now realize for years I used a wrong stance.
For years I walked into the line of the shot and without twisting the hip I got down on the shot, then I realized I had a chicken wing and tried to get rid of it by pulling my arm near my body. Now I realize I have to twist the hip to the right and by watching me in the mirror I noticed I have the shoulder, the elbow and the arm behind my head and alligned without the need to pull the arm towards my body. It is straight naturally. I tried to stroke a ball and the stroke feels so much more natural and fluid than before. I feel a lot of fatigue after few seconds, I also have the tendency to re-put the back in a more straight position and then the elbow sticks a bit outside of my head, but I have to get used to it.

[armstm]

hi there - i have been trying to get my left armpit down and right elbow behind the head - as per terry's advice. its interesting in a video online - ronnie is coaching some kids - and he is pretty emphatic on this point. in addition in an other interview he also mentions the position of the elbow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVjIZpY3Yug

http://www.smashingbeliefs.com/SCI.pdf

so i have gone from grip and stance to working on getting this elbow in the right place and being more aware of NOT moving my right shoulder (which i do a lot)

unlike others here my right elbow (i am right handed) tends to be situated to the left (ie the opposite of sticking out).

this seems to happen more for cushion shots and for middle pocket shots (from the black area).

it also doesn't seem to be in a consistent position more generally - but hopefully now i'm focused on this this will improve.

[DeanH]

Not that I think I have a "chicken-wing", playing partners have said that my right arm (right-handed) is pretty good.
But last night in some practise frames before the others turned up I tried something mentioned in earlier posts.
As I prepare to drop to the table, I have my right hand gently against my right hip. As I drop to the table my right hand slids up the body (gently, no fear for causing a sore due to rubbing) until the point when naturally it goes out to the rear (as the bridge hand gets into position) in the middle position ready for slow draw back and cue delivery.
I have to say that the "feel" feels really nice and tight and the head position is correct every time.
I did this for the rest of the night (5 frames) and I did not (luckily) have any pain or discomfort due to this new part of the walk-in, stance, and posture.
cheers all

[ps. won 3-2 with one respot black ]

[Terry Davidson]

DeanH:

There are some coaches who recommend having the grip hand against the hip when standing behind the shot and I think it's actually a very good idea. I had forgotten about it but Nic recommended I do that although it wasn't considered serious enough to be one of the 12 major points he picked up in my set-up and technique.

I'm going to give it a try this morning and see what happens

Terry

[DeanH]

Hi Terry
None of the coaches I have seen ever mentioned it - basically I had more blatant and horrible problems to iron out first
I look forward to reading your assessment.
Of course it may not suit everyone but I found that it eradicated a lot of inconsistency in the placement of the grip hand and ultimately the cue delivery. I found that I was not cue-across as much as had previously.
Cheers

[Slh]

somebody have a tecnique or some advice to make sure I have the shoulder and the elbow in line behind the head during actual play? When I'm at home I can check by watching on a mirror, but during play? To have the shoulder behind my head I have to twist the hips a lot and also I have to bend the left knee a lot. Sometime I have the shoulder behind the head, sometime not.