Lift Off

[Particle Physics]

I was looking at the Rocket's cue action, during the video of his world record 147. He appears to move his index finger when he takes the cue back, and lift off the little finger. It's hard to tell if the index finger returns to the original position on the cue. Basically, he appears to me, to deliver the cue with the inside of his thumb, web, inside of the upper index finger, with the second and third finger in contact with the cue. I tried this on the pool table last night and today, and the driving force appears to be the second finger, aided by the third finger. This grip and action allows very smooth cueing indeed, with minimal offline movement. When I first tried it, I imagined the cue would fly offline, but less appears to be more, and the cue stays more online. With no chest contact, the cueing is even smoother still, though probably not as stable. It seems very easy to get through the cue ball with this grip, much easier than the ring grip. I'm yet to try this grip/technique on a snooker table. I'll try later.

In the last couple of weeks, I've been incorporating the Ronnie grip into my game, but not lifting off, as I've been told by folk on here that this is a no-no for any grip. In fact the whole of this grip is pretty much non-textbook.

Any thoughts gents?

[tedisbill]

You desperately need a coach to set you up. You've got way too many thoughts going on in your head.

[Particle Physics]

You desperately need a coach to set you up. You've got way too many thoughts going on in your head.

Not really, I'm just experimenting a little. Most of my set-up is now concreted. I'm just trying a different grip to see what happens. I've only really been playing since April, so my mind is open. If you don't try, you don't find out. If I hadn't kept an open mind, I would have stayed straight arm for life, and suffered as a result. The reason I've posted, is because we have coaches/experts on here; they've coached me. Snooker can be interesting!

[Terry Davidson]

PP:

And here I thought you had read all my coaching posts and were taking them all to heart, but obviously you missed all my statements regarding grip.

I will teach the 'ideal' grip which is the cue held by the inside of the upper forefinger and thumb but then I go on to say that virtually every player will have his own individual grip and the actual configuration of the grip doesn't really matter as long as the player can keep it 'firm but relaxed' (now there's a statement!) and the pressure of the grip does not increase until well after the strike.

Also, I have stated on here numerous times that Ronnie will normally use his middle two fingers for his grip. In the address position the forefinger is relaxed but touching the cue (you can see the knuckle of the forefinger is up a bit from the other fingers). His main hold on the cue is with his second finger.

In fact, I use this same grip myself, although not as effectively as Ronnie does of course, but I find it helps me to drive the cue through smoothly. Think about it a bit...even Steve Davis experimented recently with his grip, going to one similar to the Alex Higgins grip which definitely used the second finger as the main hold on the cue since the forefinger is pointed directly at the floor.

All that said, I think it's about time you picked a technique and set-up and stuck with it for awhile as you will not improve if you keep making these very minor changes. The real secret of snooker is consistency in everything you do and in most cases, as long as there's not a serious flaw, a player will improve as long as he isn't moving the upper body on the shot and he will eventually discover how to deliver the cue straight.

Terry

[coomsey76]

It might be worth you having a read of this PP.......

Steve Davis's MySpace Blog .pdf

[Particle Physics]

Coach, it's an interesting grip for sure. It took me about two hours to crack it, and pot consistently. It's a very natural grip, as the hand shapes to the cue compared to V ring grip. I found the grip worked when the V was not central but at about 11 o'clock on the cue, with the heel of the hand coming into contact with the chamfer as the cue goes through. It's all about the middle and third fingers, in terms of straight delivery. Contact on the chest is closer to the nipple than the armpit, so there is a leftwards movement across the chest compared to previously. Timing is very important on this grip, because there isn't the reassurance and firmness of the index finger (ala ring grip) to fall back on. Cue delivery is certainly smoother, and less effort is required. Overall, less energy is expended and I didn't feel at all jaded after three hours. Getting down like Ronnie involves dropping over the cue in quite a natural way, and a straight back ala Hendry isn't required. I can easily see why Ronnie's style of play is fluid and smooth, and untaxing. It feels like it looks, enjoyable. Some folk in the club said I was making potting look easy and looked far smoother than usual. I will use it at practices this week in the run-up to a match we have on Thursday, quite a big match against a good team on a really good table with fantastic lights.

Coach, I know what you say about consistency and it's true, but that's for later, it's still early doors in my head, and I want to try everything, so that I can then settle on what I've found best. I have about two more weeks to make decisions, and then I have to settle on a single set-up and technique, because I have a feeling I will be told to do so!

[Particle Physics]

It might be worth you having a read of this PP.......

[ATTACH]11723[/ATTACH]

Cheers buddy, I'll read it tomorrow, Adobe just crashed; shock! Hope you enjoy the PG.

[Giggity1984]

Cheers buddy, I'll read it tomorrow, Adobe just crashed; shock! Hope you enjoy the PG.

PP, use the one in my siggy, it has more of his blog posts then this pdf. :snooker:

[Particle Physics]

PP, use the one in my siggy, it has more of his blog posts then this pdf. :snooker:

Cripes, forgot about that fabbo resource, of course! Yep, I'll have a read. Cheers buddy. Have a great wkend.

[johno]

Terry

I tried the Alex Higgins grip today that I know you've had some success with. Feels strange at first, but I found I was overscrewing
the white with little effort. I then tried just using the middle and third finger and taking the little finger off altogether, again got
loads of action into the white and accuracy didn't suffer. It does feel very open though, but I suppose I'm just used to the security
of the 'ring grip'. When you used the 3 finger grip did you apply even pressure with the little finger as well ?
Overall do you feel there are any negatives to this type of grip ?

[Terry Davidson]

johno:

I found using the 2nd finger as the primary 'hold' on the cue (I prefer 'hold' to 'grip' since grip sort of denotes pressure) as normally the 2nd finger isn't as strong as the forefinger and therefore it's much easier to control not tightening the hold until well after the strike.

I also found it really helps to drive the cue through the cueball much more consistently since it becomes a little more difficult to stop the cue prematurely. My preference is to have the back 2 fingers on the butt of the cue (except at the end of a longer backswing) since they do tighten on the butt towards the end of the delivery. When it's done right you will feel the butt of the cue sort of 'slap' into the back of the palm and that is a really good signal to start tightening the grip and decelerating the cue but as the butt doesn't slap into the back of the palm until the address position is reached during the delivery then the tightening of the back 2 fingers will happen after the strike, which is ideal for accuracy and power and in fact you get sort of a 'snap' in the delivery which adds to the power transmitted to the cueball.

Now, all that said, this grip is not for everybody. Alex Higgins used it to great effect, Steve Davis says it really helped him to pot more consistently however if you keep the back 2 fingers on the butt then you have to shorten the backswing in order to keep them there. My preference on a longer backswing is to allow the butt to 'push' the back 2 fingers out a bit (but still in contact with the butt) which allows for a longer backswing when really high power is required.

Now here's a bit BUT...I've recently discovered my left shoulder wasn't down enough and therefore my right shoulder was not up behind my head and locked. Once I got the left armpit down sufficiently I found it easier with ANY grip at all to keep the shoulder muscle out of the delivery since I was using just the elbow to deliver the cue until the very end of the delivery. Remember, Joe Davis advocated having the cue lie in the bed of all 4 fingers, but unfortunately Joe did not provide really good detail on what happens to the grip as you deliver the cue.

I believe each player must experiment a bit and find out for himself what the best grip for him to use is. Jimmy White used just the forefinger, some people use the upper inside of both forefinger and thumb (probably the most common), some people use just the 2nd finger, some people use the 2nd and 3rd fingers (Ronnie), some people use the first 2 fingers, and some people use the back 3 fingers only (Alex Higgins, and now Steve Davis if he's still using it).

The main point is, whatever grip you use if it helps you to drive through (accelerate through) the cueball and also you learn to not tighten the grip until after the strike, then it's all good but your grip might not look like any of the pros, although there is quite a variance in grips (for instance Matthew Stevens and Mark Allen have their baby fingers right off the back of the butt and not involved with holding the cue at all). The primary point is find a grip you like and then stick with it

Terry

[johno]

Terry

Great explantion as always, food for thought and i'll try a few varients and see how I go.

Thanks

[Particle Physics]

Terry

I tried the Alex Higgins grip today that I know you've had some success with. Feels strange at first, but I found I was overscrewing
the white with little effort. I then tried just using the middle and third finger and taking the little finger off altogether, again got
loads of action into the white and accuracy didn't suffer. It does feel very open though, but I suppose I'm just used to the security
of the 'ring grip'. When you used the 3 finger grip did you apply even pressure with the little finger as well ?
Overall do you feel there are any negatives to this type of grip ?

Try using the upper part (inside) of the forefinger but letting the second and third parts hang free in an arc. Don't make an effort to point the forefinger downwards, ala Higgins, this only brings tension into the hand and it ruins cue power, hence why alex used his arm a lot. Another tip to try is to have the little finger tip just touching the underside of the cue, acting as a rudder, take the cue back and let the cue push the little finger off, this will happen naturally. Then when you go fwd and close the grip through the ball, just close the second and third fingers onto the cue.

[johno]

Ok, to avoid tension in the hand when using the Higgins method how about keeping the grip relaxed, so the back 3 fingers
are just cradling the cue (and if you do the test where you try and slide the butt back & forth that Terry often mentions )
It just seems a very straight forward grip, 3 fingers that remain on the cue at all times. Just trying to look for the positives