RH Cueing to the left

[vmax4steve]

I agree that locking your eyes on the object ball will make your cue travel in a direction to pot it. But I still reckon that if you're not lined quite well enough to pot a ball, then you lock your eyes on as you shoot, you'll pot it. Which is why players lock on to the object ball.
But that's exactly what I'm saying is wrong. Obviously I'm on my own here ...

In reply to this cantpot, a long time ago I read John Spencers book and in it he stated that he doesn't always stand in the same place for every shot he plays but for him it didn't matter. Maybe he himself did what you are saying, who knows. Now the players back in Spencers day were every bit as good as the modern players, but not as consistantly good and maybe one of the reasons for this is that they didn't analyse their own game and therefore never knew the reasons for their inconsistancy. If Spencer had made a connection between his not standing in the same place and missing shots instead of sometimes potting them he just might have done something about it and gone on to win six world titles rather than three.
All of us club players are inconsistant, sometimes capable of blinding snooker for minutes or hours at a time, sometimes incapable of potting simple balls for minutes or hours at a time. The reason for this is simply that when playing poorly we are doing something that we normally don't do or not doing something that we normally do and we have to find out what it is. Going back to the absolute basics of looking at the target while lining up and executing the shot cures this inconsistancy in a hell of a lot of cases.
I am not a coach of any description, fact is I don't believe in 'coaching' par se as I believe it stops the natural progression of things by reaching what is seen to be to be uniform technique that is then taught and applied and strictly adhered to. Teaching someone to play in a certain way is wrong, giving good advice is fine and all I strive to do on the coaching threads is to give good advice about how natural hand/eye co-ordination works.
That's all I've got along with use a cue long enough for your height so that you can play with enough cue over your bridge to line up the shot giving you enough backswing for power shots and follow through without dropping your shoulder before the cue ball is struck.

[CoachGavin]

Coaching can help to save a lot of wasted effort. I have taught players to play screw shots when they have been playing for years without success. I believe players benefit from coaching as their technique can be improved to make the game easier. However I do think everyone has their own individual styles but coaching can improve a players action to improve their snooker. Not many players naturally pick up a cue and have a good action. This means many play for years without improving when coaching can change this.

[Dan Lim]

I truly agreed as what CoachGavin had say.

[cantpotforshíte]

Well I've yet to hear from any coach who can see the contradiction between:
1) getting lined up and moving your cue in a straight line, and
2) focussing on the object ball at the time of striking.
So far infact I'm not sure that anybody has quite understood what I'm trying to say; that hand-to-eye coordination actually prevents you from moving your cue in a straight line.
It's the crux of anybody's snooker technique, before any of the technical stuff.
I'm obviously on my own so I'll work on it and see where I get.

[Terry Davidson]

cantpot:

I was unable to comment very much as I don't understand what you're trying to say. For instance:

1. 'getting lined up' MEANS you have your eyes on the object ball and keep them there while you get down into the address position and then once there the eyes move between the two balls while feathering or else they will quickly check the line of aim just before the feathering starts. Hopefully the player will move the cue back and forth in a straight line during feathering and also very importantly on the backswing and delivery.

2. I advocate having the eyes focused on the object ball at the time of strike. I realize in actual fact the eyes can be focused anywhere since players (including myself) can pot balls with the eyes closed but I sure feel more comfortable when I focus on the object ball during the front pause and keep them there for the backswing and delivery and yes, I do feel the delivery of a snooker cue is a function of hand-eye coordination and the hand (or forearm more accurately) will follow the focus of the eyes and as we are concerned with a TWO-BALL game rather than a one-ball game like golf I believe we should be looking at the ball which we are trying to direct towards a pocket by a contact point on two spheres.

Surely that makes sense to a lot of players and I would suspect the majority by a large margin.

Terry

[cantpotforshíte]

And we know that's what most coaches teach Terry, I understand it but it just doesn't seem to quite add up to me.
Particularly: If you don't quite get No (1) right, then doing No. (2) will make you pot the ball as the hand follows the eye.

Do you not think that this will send the incorrect feedback to the brain for future? I mean as in there's no reason to get perfectly lined up next time if you pot the ball anyway subconsciously using hand-to-eye coordination.

Sorry if I've not been very clear about this, but it's what I've been trying to get at all along.

Del

[itsnoteasy]

I am not sure if i am reading this wrong but do you mean if the aim is say a quarter ball cut the line of aim is obviously outside the object ball but the eyes are on the object ball contact point therefore hand eye co ordination would make the cue go towards where you are looking rather than where you are aiming? is that where your question lies? if it isnt this its still a good question lol.

[throtts]

I am not sure if i am reading this wrong but do you mean if the aim is say a quarter ball cut the line of aim is obviously outside the object ball but the eyes are on the object ball contact point therefore hand eye co ordination would make the cue go towards where you are looking rather than where you are aiming? is that where your question lies? if it isnt this its still a good question lol.

Thats what Terry is saying is the right thing to do, to focus on the object ball contact point on the strike.

[throtts]

And we know that's what most coaches teach Terry, I understand it but it just doesn't seem to quite add up to me.
Particularly: If you don't quite get No (1) right, then doing No. (2) will make you pot the ball as the hand follows the eye.

So your saying if you go down full ball on a black which is a half ball pot off its spot you can carry out No 2 above to pot it. Your saying then just do your sighting down on the shot, which obviously is wrong. Not one pro on planet earth would do that.

[vmax4steve]

Particularly: If you don't quite get No (1) right, then doing No. (2) will make you pot the ball as the hand follows the eye.

If you get down on the shot on the incorrect line of aim and then focus on the correct contact point on the object ball, play the shot and pot it without consciously adjusting your stance or even your cue arm then I would suggest that you are subconsciously allowing for the throw of the cue ball due to the unwanted side you are applying to it when the hand follows the eye and plays across the cue ball because it is something you have been doing for years.
Does that make sense cantpot ?

Basically doing (1) and (2) should ensure that the pot is lined up correctly and the hand follows the eye without making any subconscious allowances for unwanted side.

[DandyA]

Well I've yet to hear from any coach who can see the contradiction between:
1) getting lined up and moving your cue in a straight line, and
2) focussing on the object ball at the time of striking.
So far infact I'm not sure that anybody has quite understood what I'm trying to say; that hand-to-eye coordination actually prevents you from moving your cue in a straight line.
It's the crux of anybody's snooker technique, before any of the technical stuff.
I'm obviously on my own so I'll work on it and see where I get.

I might be wrong but what I think cantpotfor****e is talking about is the contradiction between the line of aim, ie the line the cue needs to be on so that, if delivered perfectly straight, the cue hits the cue ball down that line so it contacts the object ball at the correct point to make the pot ... and the line of sight most coaches/players recommend ... ie that your eyes should be pointed at the contact point (BOB, back of ball) as you deliver the cue ...

apart from full ball pots, the line of aim is very clearly different to a line of sight to the BOB ... so, if you assume that hand follows eye (steering the cue), you're causing yourself all sorts of problems by looking at the line of sight to the BOB as you deliver the cue cos it is *not* the line you want the cue to follow ...

for this reason, I changed a few months ago from looking at the object ball during delivery (as I had always done) to looking at the cue ball ... so now all I have to worry about is choosing the right line of aim (whilst standing), getting down on that line and then delivering the cue straight ...

it's nice, I like it ... it took a little while to get used to but I love it ... 100% concentration on choosing the correct line of aim and then delivering the cue straight ... no danger of steering the cue during delivery cos I don't look at the object ball ... and my game has definitely improved ...

just to be clear, this is what I now do ... determine line of aim (and power and top/bottom) whilst standing ... drop down into cueing position, feather as normal flicking eyes between cue, cue ball and object ball until I'm happy my cue is on the line of aim I want (which may or may not be correct!) ... then at the front pause before the final backswing and delivery say "that's it" - no more looking at the object ball, just focus on the cue and cue ball and deliver as straight as I can ...

Mike Page has posted an interesting video on this subject ...

part 1 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE1hn...feature=fvwrel
part 2 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg2_b...feature=fvwrel

I hope that's what cantpotfor****e is talking about cos I'm going to get told off by many on this forum for doing it all wrong

[cantpotforshíte]

So your saying if you go down full ball on a black which is a half ball pot off its spot you can carry out No 2 above to pot it. Your saying then just do your sighting down on the shot, which obviously is wrong. Not one pro on planet earth would do that.

No, I'm saying the absolute opposite of that. I'm saying that we should do all the sighting on the getting lined up, and move your cue in a straight line.
What a lot of us do, which I think is wrong, is try to get lined up but not manage it perfectly, then pot the ball with the eyes.
I can see that I'm obviously not describing it very well.

[cantpotforshíte]

quote from notsoeasy:
I am not sure if i am reading this wrong but do you mean if the aim is say a quarter ball cut the line of aim is obviously outside the object ball but the eyes are on the object ball contact point therefore hand eye co ordination would make the cue go towards where you are looking rather than where you are aiming? is that where your question lies? if it isnt this its still a good question lol.

That isn't what I was saying mate but it's food for thought. The general consensus is that your subconscious automatically compensates for the difference between the line of aim and the line from your cue to the back of ball.

[cantpotforshíte]

If you get down on the shot on the incorrect line of aim and then focus on the correct contact point on the object ball, play the shot and pot it without consciously adjusting your stance or even your cue arm then I would suggest that you are subconsciously allowing for the throw of the cue ball due to the unwanted side you are applying to it when the hand follows the eye and plays across the cue ball because it is something you have been doing for years.
Does that make sense cantpot ?

Basically doing (1) and (2) should ensure that the pot is lined up correctly and the hand follows the eye without making any subconscious allowances for unwanted side.

I wasn't thinking of side vmax, just small sunconscious millimetre movements in the grip hand, elbow, or shoulder. But anybody who uses side too much would be able to change the direction of the cueball depending on how they timed the shot or how hard they hit it etc... I can expect that the problem would be worse for those that have over-used side.

[cantpotforshíte]

I might be wrong but what I think cantpotfor****e is talking about is the contradiction between the line of aim, ie the line the cue needs to be on so that, if delivered perfectly straight, the cue hits the cue ball down that line so it contacts the object ball at the correct point to make the pot ... and the line of sight most coaches/players recommend ... ie that your eyes should be pointed at the contact point (BOB, back of ball) as you deliver the cue ...

apart from full ball pots, the line of aim is very clearly different to a line of sight to the BOB ... so, if you assume that hand follows eye (steering the cue), you're causing yourself all sorts of problems by looking at the line of sight to the BOB as you deliver the cue cos it is *not* the line you want the cue to follow ...

for this reason, I changed a few months ago from looking at the object ball during delivery (as I had always done) to looking at the cue ball ... so now all I have to worry about is choosing the right line of aim (whilst standing), getting down on that line and then delivering the cue straight ...

it's nice, I like it ... it took a little while to get used to but I love it ... 100% concentration on choosing the correct line of aim and then delivering the cue straight ... no danger of steering the cue during delivery cos I don't look at the object ball ... and my game has definitely improved ...

just to be clear, this is what I now do ... determine line of aim (and power and top/bottom) whilst standing ... drop down into cueing position, feather as normal flicking eyes between cue, cue ball and object ball until I'm happy my cue is on the line of aim I want (which may or may not be correct!) ... then at the front pause before the final backswing and delivery say "that's it" - no more looking at the object ball, just focus on the cue and cue ball and deliver as straight as I can ...

Mike Page has posted an interesting video on this subject ...

part 1 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE1hn...feature=fvwrel
part 2 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg2_b...feature=fvwrel

I hope that's what cantpotfor****e is talking about cos I'm going to get told off by many on this forum for doing it all wrong

Thanks for your informative reply DandyA

The difference between the line of aim and the line from your cue to back-of-ball isn't quite the problem thatt I was trying to explain, but we have arrived at the same solution for slightly different reasons.

I'm contending that for any pot, even for a dead straight pot, we might not get lined up well enough to pot it because of any number of other reasons like sighting, laziness etc. And then it's possible to correct this by focussing on the object ball and subconsciously cueing across to actually pot it. Which is obviously not the way forward.

I'm glad your new technique is working for you; I find that it increases the feedback tremendously ... If I stick to looking at the cue ball for instance I can usually tell from the sound of the contact whether or not I've potted the ball. I've never experienced this sort of feedback whilst trying to pot the ball on the delivery.