RH Cueing to the left

[nrage]

Mike Page has posted an interesting video on this subject ...

part 1 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE1hn...feature=fvwrel
part 2 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg2_b...feature=fvwrel

Those videos are interesting from a theory point of view, but I didn't find them all that helpful in practice. I just know vmax is going to say something about them over complicating things - which would be true if anyone actually tried to think about all that while potting balls. Instead the theory helps you decide on a system which should work, as you've done, and it sounds like it's helped a lot which is great.

Personally I draw the line of aim on the table with my eyes. It all starts from the BOB contact point, and my estimation of the size of the white and where it needs to be to hit that (ghost ball), from that I draw the path the white takes (line of aim) and then I get down on that and play my shot focusing on BOB at the time of strike. The only conscious part of the system I just described is finding the BOB contact point and imagining the path/line of aim on the table. I let my subconscious mind do the ghost ball part, because I don't think I'm all that good at consciously estimating the size of the white over distance. Plus I have always been a good potter for years (playing pool), and it was all done subconsciously using a BOB point - so the only "recent" conscious change (for snooker) is the imagining of the line of aim on the table as I get down.

Before reaching this "system" I tried the 1/2, 3/4 and 1/4 ball overlap method, the classic ghost ball method, but neither seemed to work as well for me as simple BOB with an unconscious line of aim finding mechanism (I just tell my brain to pick the line needed to hit the BOB, upon which I am focused).

I have had mixed results, and I think my most common fault is hitting things a bit thick - meaning I am not so good at finding the line of aim for thinner cuts it seems. This may be a weakness in the system, or in my ability to unconsciously judge the ghost ball, I am not sure.

[vmax4steve]

I might be wrong but what I think cantpotfor****e is talking about is the contradiction between the line of aim, ie the line the cue needs to be on so that, if delivered perfectly straight, the cue hits the cue ball down that line so it contacts the object ball at the correct point to make the pot ... and the line of sight most coaches/players recommend ... ie that your eyes should be pointed at the contact point (BOB, back of ball) as you deliver the cue ...

apart from full ball pots, the line of aim is very clearly different to a line of sight to the BOB ... so, if you assume that hand follows eye (steering the cue), you're causing yourself all sorts of problems by looking at the line of sight to the BOB as you deliver the cue cos it is *not* the line you want the cue to follow (

Of course the line of aim and the line of the cue is different for anything other than full ball contacts. Once again people over analyse this believing that they have to make a conscious decision to separate the two.
The answer is that you don't have to as the brain makes this decision for you on a subconscious level. The brain knows what you are trying to do, the brain knows that you are not trying to hit the object ball with the 10mm tip of the cue. The brain knows that you are lining up one ball to hit another in a certain place and therefore the brain doesn't allow you to aim the tip of your cue at the contact point of the object ball.
What the brain does when you are lining up a shot is make the cue ball a part of the cue, as if the cue tip was as wide as the cue ball and locking your eyes on to the point of contact on the object ball tells the brain exactly what part of the 2 & 1/16 inch subconscious cue tip needs to contact the contact point you are looking at.

[DandyA]

I think this is a really interesting discussion ... thanks to everyone taking part in it ...

I'm contending that for any pot, even for a dead straight pot, we might not get lined up well enough to pot it because of any number of other reasons like sighting, laziness etc. And then it's possible to correct this by focussing on the object ball and subconsciously cueing across to actually pot it. Which is obviously not the way forward.

yep, totally agree and I think that's the most important point ...

Those videos are interesting from a theory point of view, but I didn't find them all that helpful in practice.

yep, agreed ... I certainly wasn't trying to suggest they were the answer or even good advice ... just that they were an interesting discussion of the issues ...

The answer is that you don't have to as the brain makes this decision for you on a subconscious level. The brain knows what you are trying to do, the brain knows that you are not trying to hit the object ball with the 10mm tip of the cue. The brain knows that you are lining up one ball to hit another in a certain place and therefore the brain doesn't allow you to aim the tip of your cue at the contact point of the object ball.

yep, I totally accept that ... I would think darts is the best example - the player looks at where he/she wants the dart to land but then throws the dart in a completely different direction (cos of gravity) - so he/she has to trust their subconscious ...

[itsnoteasy]

I am not totally convinced the brain is as agile as we think, can it compensate for looking one way but aiming another? the only thing i could suggest is try looking at an 11 on a dart board and hitting a treble 20 its impossible. Actually trying to look one way and throwing another while stopping your eyes moving to the real target is very hard to do, so i dont know if your cue arm follows your eyes or your eyes follow the cue direction, or indeed your brain can figure all this out in the time it has, maybe thats why the pauses are so important, just to give the brain time to sort itself out.

[cantpotforshíte]

I am not totally convinced the brain is as agile as we think, can it compensate for looking one way but aiming another? the only thing i could suggest is try looking at an 11 on a dart board and hitting a treble 20 its impossible. Actually trying to look one way and throwing another while stopping your eyes moving to the real target is very hard to do, so i dont know if your cue arm follows your eyes or your eyes follow the cue direction, or indeed your brain can figure all this out in the time it has, maybe thats why the pauses are so important, just to give the brain time to sort itself out.

I think that the subconscious brain is capable of absolutely anthing as long as it gets a clear message or goal.
Perhaps with snooker it'll work out alright as long as you look at the same thing upon striking as you look at when you are getting down on the shot. ie If you look at back-of-ball on the way down, then look at the same upon delivering the cue, it might lock you on the line of the shot. But if you use the ghost ball or line-of-aim as you get down on the shot, but then focus on back-of-ball upon delivering the cue, you might be in trouble.
Either way, what you say isn't a bad argument for just getting lined up and then pushing the cue through straight. At least as you get lined up there's more time for your subconscious to do it's stuff (and you're doing nothing else at this point so it frees the mind to do it properly)
I still have a bit of trouble comparing darts to snooker, I'm not sure they're that similar.

[vmax4steve]

I think that the subconscious brain is capable of absolutely anthing as long as it gets a clear message or goal.

Got it in one there cantpot.
The other variables contained within the snooker shot have to be disregarded by the conscious mind at the very moment of striking the cue ball, things such as the pocket, cannons and kisses being played for, the position being played for. The conscious mind locks the eyes on to the target and the subconscious link between hand and eye will keep the cue on line.

In last nights league match I committed this very cardinal sin. In around the black spot I had a half ball red to play a cannon on another red to stay on the black, took my eye off the point of contact needed for the pot and instead locked onto a point of contact needed for the cannon. Got the cannon and missed the pot. I was on 32 at the time and a 50+ was on the cards, luckily I had a chance to clear the last five colours to pinch the frame and managed it, but the frame should have been won before that with a nice 50+ break to my name along with it.
That's all it takes to miss a sitter, allow your conscious mind to wander and it will lock onto to some other variable contained within the shot at the moment of the strike and the shot will be missed.

This hand/eye co-ordination is the very essence of the game and anyone having trouble with their game or finding it hard to learn should look at this first.

[cantpotforshíte]

But locking your eyes on to a different point on the object ball, or wherever, is a different thing from focussing on the cue ball or cue in order to make sure that where the eyes are focussed will not affect the delivery of the cue.
I still reckon that focussing or locking the eyes on to the object ball must affect the direction of your cueing.

[alabadi]

i have been following this thread with interest, there seems to be two schools of thought here, those who believe that looking at the object ball while striking will cause the cue to come off line and follow the eye cutting across the cueball and causing errors.

other believe that the brain is quite capable of distiguishing what is trying to be acheived and therefor as long is all the other parts of the shot are sound should make the cueball head towards the correct contact point, asuming that it has been identified correctly to start with.

to tell the truth it seems there are merits in both arguments and i really haven't thought obout the first option much really, i have always believed that the brain will sort things out. we always here pros saying they look at the contact point or by how much the cueball needs to cover the arc of the OB to make the pot. if it works for them then surely thats the best way to play as they prove that it works.

i am no expert here and do use different variations of BOB depending how close or far i am from the OB. on close shots it is quite easy to focus on the contact point itself, and also its easier to veryify while down if your aim is correct.

on long balls i find it much more difficult and use the coverage option and instead of trying to see/focus on a 1mm dot on OB i just make sure that i am on line to deliver the cueball towards the OB to the point i have selected.
now obviously i am no pro so can miss a lot and this could be not due to the fact that the method is wrong but maybe some technique or selecting the wrong contact point to start with.

i think that with time and practice we all estimate shots especially long pots and its how consistant and accurate our estimation is that reeps success.

i am still to be convinced with cantpotfor.... argument that the cue will move off line and follow the eye line to the shot, but at least i will give it some thought just to test the merits of the aurgument.

Alabbadi

[vmax4steve]

But locking your eyes on to a different point on the object ball, or wherever, is a different thing from focussing on the cue ball or cue in order to make sure that where the eyes are focussed will not affect the delivery of the cue.
I still reckon that focussing or locking the eyes on to the object ball must affect the direction of your cueing.

But where the eyes are focussed does have an effect on the direction of the delivery of the cue, and just looking at the cue ball will only make sure that the cue makes contact with the cue ball, and the cue could be coming from a direction that is 1/4 of an inch away from the the straight line that you have made a connection with when lining up the shot by focussing on the contact point of the object ball. Looking at the cue ball at the moment of the strike is still not looking at the target because the target is the point of contact on the object ball.

The only way that one cannot focus on anything in particular is when the eyes are closed. Nrage, Terry and myself have said in other threads that a good way to find out if you have a straight cue action is to line up a straight pot in the normal way but close the eyes at the moment of the strike to ensure that you are not focussing on anything that will take the cue off the line of aim. If you can pot balls like this then your cue action is pretty O.K. so having trouble when the eyes are open shows that you are looking elsewhere other than at the target, which is exactly what you are doing by focussing on the cue ball at the moment of the strike

My previous anology with a rifle shooter stands, but take it instead to a crossbow shooter as he can in fact see the bolt in his weapon unlike a rifle shooter who cannot see his bullet. The target is lined up with the barrel of the crossbow, bolt clearly visible to the shooter but sat inside the groove in the barrel. The connection to the target is made by looking at the target and pointing the barrel of the crossbow at it. The shooter will not then try to keep perfectly still by focussing on the bolt and squeezing the trigger because there will be small movements that he will be unaware of because he is not focussing on the target. Focussing on the target keeps the barrel of the crossbow on the line of the shot through the subconscious connection between hand and eye and it's the same with snooker.

Focussing on the target at the moment of the strike not only keeps the connection between hand and eye that you have lined up but also helps a great deal to ensure that you keep still on the shot at the moment of the strike for taking your eyes off the target usually means that you have moved your head/upper body.

These are my last words on this subject, I cannot make it any clearer, I am right and I am unanimous in that, to quote Mrs Slocombe :encouragement:

[cantpotforshíte]

Far enough, thanks for all your replies Vmax. Plenty of food for thought.
Anybody else got any suggestions? Just to repeat, I think that if you're not lined up perfectly to pot a ball, and you then focus your eyes on the object ball upon delivering the cue, your subconscious will often still pot it by not cueing straight. Which I think is a problem.
The way that I'm trying to overcome this is by focussing on nothing upon delivering the cue, and I'm trying to do this with the eyes following the cue, flicking to the white ball upon impact, and then following the line that the cue ball takes after impact. All within about a second, which doesn't give my tired old eyes time to focus on anything, so it's as good as playing with the eyes shut, but you still get to see the direction that the cue ball takes.
Anybody else got any experience with this? It can't only be DandyA and Alabadi who've thought about it ...
To reiterate, I'm not suggesting that focussing on the object ball at the time of striking will cause you to miss when you're lined up (though it might), I'm suggesting that focussing on the object ball at the time of striking will cause you to pot it when you're not lined up, and I think this is a problem.

[Terry Davidson]

How many times have we all taken our eyes off the potting angle on the object ball when we are attempting a positional cannon or avoiding a cannon. I catch myself doing this all the time and the end result is I always miss the pot or barely make it.

You even hear the TV commentators talk about this when a pro misses a dead easy pot. I believe it's very common and since I am liable to do this at any time the only solution that seems to work for me is to lock my eyes on the object ball at the front pause (I have no rear pause to speak of) and ensure I keep my eyes locked on the object ball and don't let them wander to either the ball I need a cannon on or else the pocket.

Another very good trick on this is to keep the head down and still until after the pot is completed and develop that as a habit for every shot. I find this helps me to stay still throughout the backswing and delivery for some reason.

Terry

[alabadi]

I Agree with Vmax here, focusing on the target allows brain to deliver the cue to the cueball and in turn the cueball to the target.

what i find difficult is focusing on a spot on the OB, i mean if we really analyse the point that the cueball makes with the object ball (in order to send it to the desired target) we are talking a mm or less. so to actually see that point over 10 feet or so is very hard and maybe realistically imposible.

what i think that we all do to some degree or other as i mentioned before is we select a point or area that from the BOB to the pocket that corresponds with the correct angle, so when we are behind the cueball we look at this angle and select the area on BOB that the cueball needs to make contact with to pot. we then make all our judgments of where the cue needs to be pointing to send the cueball to that point.

the difference between us and the pros is that they can send the cueball to the point they aimed at consitently, where us lesser players can't get the consistency due to other errors in our game, we then start blaming our aiming and think that this is the reason for our failure and start testing other ideas and aiming techniques which ultimately end the same or even make it worse.

i now beleive for me selecting the correct angle/point on the OB to make the pot is less of a problem and it is other factures in my technique that will allow me to send the cueball to that point more of a issue which i am trying to work on.

Alabbadi

[nrage]

I Agree with Vmax here, focusing on the target allows brain to deliver the cue to the cueball and in turn the cueball to the target.

what i find difficult is focusing on a spot on the OB, i mean if we really analyse the point that the cueball makes with the object ball (in order to send it to the desired target) we are talking a mm or less. so to actually see that point over 10 feet or so is very hard and maybe realistically imposible.

what i think that we all do to some degree or other as i mentioned before is we select a point or area that from the BOB to the pocket that corresponds with the correct angle, so when we are behind the cueball we look at this angle and select the area on BOB that the cueball needs to make contact with to pot. we then make all our judgments of where the cue needs to be pointing to send the cueball to that point.

the difference between us and the pros is that they can send the cueball to the point they aimed at consitently, where us lesser players can't get the consistency due to other errors in our game, we then start blaming our aiming and think that this is the reason for our failure and start testing other ideas and aiming techniques which ultimately end the same or even make it worse.

i now beleive for me selecting the correct angle/point on the OB to make the pot is less of a problem and it is other factures in my technique that will allow me to send the cueball to that point more of a issue which i am trying to work on.

Alabbadi

Over 10ft I think I am focused on a spot, but I'm not trying to "see" that spot in any detail instead I am using it to see a ghost ball and a line of aim.

My method is to pick a spot and use a ghost ball to find the line of aim (which is not an entirely conscious process) and then I get down on that line of aim and look at the object ball. What I'm looking at /is/ the BOB contact point, but it's also the ghost ball hitting that spot. I'm telling my brain "I want to hit that spot" and my brain is projecting the ghost ball and line of aim offset to that spot. As long as I focus on the BOB spot and think "I want to hit that" my brain does the necessary work to "make it so". The fact that I cannot really "see" the exact spot doesn't matter provided I am projecting the ghost ball correctly. The projection is mostly unconscious and done by my brain as if by magic, and it is what improves with practice.

I think for most people, not just for you, that selecting the aiming point is less of a problem than actually hitting the white ball where you're aiming. Inconsistency in my own technique is why on some days I pot amazing balls from everywhere (the days where I hit the ball where I'm actually aiming) and some days I can't pot a thing (the days where my many flaws are in full effect). I don't change how I aim, and my brain isn't suddenly worse at aiming (unless I'm a bit tired) all that's changed is my ability to hit the white where I'm aiming.

It's why I focused so hard on technique for so long. But, when I did that I neglected to keep practicing the aiming part and keep my brain on it's toes. I also wasn't practicing enough position, and by that I mean consciously selecting target positions and how to make them, then playing them. A balanced approach to snooker involving some isolated technique practice, and lots of plain old potting and positional play is a far better idea, IMO.

[itsnoteasy]

Cantpot, i wasnt trying to compare darts to snooker, it was just a co-ordination example of how easy the brain can be confused trying to do more than one thing, the classic example is of course rubbing your belly while patting your head two very simple tasks for a brain to do yet together it confuses it completely.
Myself i focus on the object ball, infact i dont really take the cue ball into account as i try to line up right, cue bang online, check cue ball then when feathering i am kind of playing as if there is no cue ball(i am cueing at the object ball) as when i deliver the cue i go straight through the cue ball as if its not there and my cue is pointed at the right place, so it doesnt matter if there is a ball in its way or not doesnt affect the shot, does that make sense? might not have explained that right lol

[cantpotforshíte]

Yep, I see exactly what you're saying, itsnoteasy.
But it's exactly that hand-to-eye coordination that I'm suggesting could make you pot the ball even if you're not lined up perfectly. Which would of course not be good in the long run.
Maybe it's just me because I'd been playing the game the wrong way for so long. I'll see if I can find any examples of the pros on youtube doing it when I have time.