I once was saved; but now am Lost...

[Sidd]

Hello after long.

I changed my club a couple of months ago. started playing in this new club with a bunch of some fine players. I started playing properly and gained the respect and hence moved on to the best table on which only the senior and serious players are allowed to play; mostly. I was doing just about OK when suddenly I lost it all together. I made a near 50 break on two occasions and was doing fine and improving slowly... I know that I havent been playing much lately and this might be because of that but then it couldnt be given that when I play bad (these days) I cant make a single ball... something goes terribly wrong I reckon.

The table cloth and cushion have been changed recently and by all club standards this is the fastest table i have ever played on and its just a dream table to play on. I enjoyed myself a lot on it playing good and winning... I took three days of practice to learn how to control on this extremely fast cloth and then there I was .. I had got it all figured out my positional play was brilliant, safety turned immaculate and I was on top of my game until one fine day when suddenly i lost it all...

I cant help thinking its all in the grip hand configuration... I have worked hard on stance, approach, pre-shot routine follow through backswing and delivery etc. There is no apparent body movement and i can deliver purely perfectly; well almost. And its not only missing i am worried about but when i miss i miss it by miles from the pocket and hence begin to wonder whats happening... I need advice on the following please....

1. While playing a keeping the grip loose one friend commented that my grip is perhaps too loose and while watching me from the back he said that on delivery it seemed if the cue is going to slip away. is that a good thing or a bad thing? am i gripping it too loose (the looseness prophesized here tells me you cant be too loose)

2. how do I make use of inner parts of thumb and forfinger while driving the cue back and on delivery? If I do that i feel that my inner part of thumb and forefinger is gripping the cue whereas the rest of finger pads and everything else seems without a function except for making the cue rest in them.... is that ok or do i need to change ?

3. am i still unintentionally gripping the cue tight or else tightening it before impact with cue ball? how to ascertain if that is the case and if yes how to correct it...

I dont know for sure but I cant help feeling its in the grip and nothing else...

best regards,
SIDD

[Sidd]

Most Embarrassing Situation

Some of the young kids, after seeing me play approached me to start coaching them whenever I have free time... This meant a lot to me as a player as it means that they do believe in my playing style etc and are sure that i am a good player. I told them that i am an amateur and not at all a coach and cant say yes to that at the expense of ruining them but they insisted hard so in the light of my experience I started giving them a few tips on technique for free but only the basics and then asked them to practice and seek a professional coach....

now those kids when they see me being me these days must know for sure that i did the right thing in being honest to them.. but this is in fact quite an embarrassing situation for any given player.

[hotpot]

Sidd i believe the grip is very much a personal thing and therefore hard to advise unless your a beginner then text book is the way to go . I,ve been experimenting with my grip and stance lately and when i think i,ve cracked the grip and take note of the placement and firmness of the fingers and thumb it feel really good and i play well . Trouble is a few days later when i try the exact grip it suddenly feels uncomfortable and my play suffers . Like you say it can be very frustrating and sometimes we are all guity of over analysing things instead of just getting on with it .

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

The problem here is you somehow have lost a bit of confidence (perhaps through lack of practice) and I still believe you are concentrating on your technique too much when you are playing. Technique practice is ONLY for solo practice but I know it's hard to keep it out of your mind when playing a normal frame.

Your questions regarding the grip are correct. Only the top of the forefinger and thumb hold the cue and the back 3 fingers only function as a bed for the cue to rest in. BUT, (and a big BUT), almost ANY grip configuration will work as long as the player doesn't tighten the grip before the strike and I myself use the second finger as the main hold on the cue as I find I can keep the correct pressure on the butt of the cue throughout the backswing and delivery (although with this grip the backswing is a touch shorter).

As far as trying to tell when you're tightening the grip that is very tough to do unless you have a video camera and analyse things frame-by-frame. What you can do is try and pot long blues at medium pace as a 'stop' shot and practice not tightening the grip at all, just allow the cue to lay in the 4 fingers as when you drive through to the chest the back of the thumb hitting the chest will squeeze the butt into the top of the forefinger and will stop the cue.

Terry

[Sidd]

Hotpot: you are right, it is indeed a personal thing and once a particular configuration seems perfect for a few days and then suddenly it goes away. One has to keep practicing it until it becomes second nature... But its getting on me now and is rather a hard thing to achieve.

Terry: Yes you are very right indeed. I am suffering from lack of confidence these days and every simple shot seems hard to me. But that can be overcome I understand but then the other parts of your advice are hard to achieve. Yes I try to follow your words not to think of technique in matches but honestly speaking its a hard hard thing to get to. It comes in mind to me after every missed pot...

Yes you picked that up right as well in saying that I am not doing regular solo at all due to not being able to play consistently. I normally go 2 days or three days a week these days and the club is full all tables are on so I have to play on matches.

Finally, all I need to focus on now is to keep it loose (what is excellent loose and not slopy loose, I still have no idea) but will practice on that.

Terry: If i hold the cue with inner parts of thumb and forefinger and cradle with the rest of finger pads- then- it this a correct grip in which while doing so you feel the inner parts of thumb and forefinger rather tight or tense or a bit of a hold from that area and due to that the rest of the hand goes loose and without exerting any pressure ... this is the feeling I get from trying that... is this correct or wrong... and this sort of grip automatically tends to loosen the forefinger and it cant touch the butt like ronnie and yourself...!!!

I dont know... Maybe i need to practice a lot and understand the grip configuration and to keep it loose after strike... i guess the players that i play with are blessed for not having to know too much about technique and hence not bothering and at least playing decently... yes they cant make 50 breaks or 50 plus breaks usually but they normally win due to the fact that they keep on potting ... !!!

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

There is no absolutely correct grip but rather a player should experiment and find a grip that suits him and allows him to keep the grip untightened as he goes through the cueball. See the other string for my post on Steve Davis' method of determining the correct grip pressure.

The 'ideal' grip as taught by many coaches is to 'hold' the cue with the upper inside of the thumb and forefinger such that there is no air gap with the web of skin between them. The back 3 fingers do not grip the cue but rather form a bed for the butt to lay in and when the cue is backswung the hold on the cue remains the upper thumb and forefinger all the way back and keeps the same amount of 'hold' or pressure on the butt.

When the delivery starts the point to keep in mind is your want the grip to return to EXACTLY the way it was in the initial address position at the front pause before you started the final backswing. This same amount of pressure remains until AFTER the cueball has been struck but now after the initial resistance of the cueball the player starts to tighten the grip in order to keep accelerating the cue at the speed it was at just before the strike and maintain that same acceleration until the back of the grip hand thumb strikes the chest which will force the thumb over towards the forefinger and thus tighten the grip on the cue. At the same time as this happens most players will also tighten the back 3 fingers on the butt and also allow the forefinger to rise a bit off the butt, but this is due to the angle of the butt with the grip hand and wrist and the dropped elbow (if it happens).

Terry

[hotpot]

Had an hour Today and my grip felt so comfortable it was the best it has felt for a long time . I always cue well when my grip feel like this and i was hitting the ball lovely and cueing as straight as i have done for a long time . My timing was also spot on and i felt in the zone straight from the off . Dont know how long it will last though as i find the hardest thing is to replicate the exact feeling even though i know where my fingers need to go .

[Sidd]

Thanks Terry, yes I think I am suffering from the same thing, most probably, that whilst in the final delivery when I am bringing my 3 fingers back on the cue I am perhaps tightening them more than required and therefore clinching... Will practice and check that out...

Yyou know this reminds of how I used to play before starting snooker again and taking coaching advice from you on this forum and begining to have a solid technique... I used to play with a grip that I formed the ring with thumb and forefinger and kept the last 3 fingers very very loose and during delivery the fingers didnt really come back on to the butt and it sort of worked well for me. So my grip was such that i used to plny grip with and play with forefinger and thumb ring and nothing else, having the 3 fingers sort of flying in the air upon impact... that worked well however after getting serious about my game and getting advice and all that I know now that that was a rather sloppy grip hold. However, now I think i have to learn something from my amateur days in keeping the hold loose upon impact! Lets see... will keep you and others updated.

you are quite right Hotpot; happens to me sometimes and I have shared tha ton this forum some time back as well that when this happens to me and I feel in the zone yes my stance feet delivery rythym everything seems to get in place but then soon it wanishes without a warning and yes when I am in the zone I feel the grip perfect and can even notice the cue slipping in my grip hand slightly on long pots and power shots and above all i have another very unique feeling ... I feel as if the weight of my cue has gone to light lighter lightest yes i am not kidding and sometimes out of wonder alone I stare at my cue hahaha just to see if its really mine and that I am not holding someone else's cue which might be very light in weight but then yes when i am in the zone I do feel like holding a light very light cue (mine is medium weight 18 or 18.5 ounces) ...!!!

Terry: the last statement above to hotpot reminded me of something that i could ask you... I started playing with a sub standard riley cue back in the 90's and it wasnt more that 17 ounces i.e. a very light cue and then when i broke it off i bought a better riley cue which was also almost 17 ounces and it felt very light and i for some reason did not like it so i added some weight and made it 18 ounces and it was great .. then it got stolen and i had to but my current cue peradon sandringham and boy it is THe cue for me really... however it is 18.5 to 18.75 ounces and i can feel it is a little heavier but i liked its feel and weight and got on with it... the question is: is there any way that getting to a heavier cue might demand looser grip ? because i believe heavier cues need just to slide and their weight carries on with power required themselves and maybe due to using heavier cue i have to have a much lighter hold ???

[Terry Davidson]

I doubt that a heavier cue would make any measurable difference to the tightness of the grip. These days quite a number of the top pros are using cues in the 18oz range and remember they are usually playing on cloths that are a lot fast than what the average club player is using.

The is nothing wrong (or at least TOO wrong) with only using the thumb and forefinger throughout the backswing and delivery and in fact it's more right than wrong because it absolutely prevents the player from being able to tighten the grip with the back of the hand. The purists will insist all 4 fingers should be at least touching the butt during the address position however Jimmy White played with just the forefinger (I'm not sure if he still does or not) and also Hendry when he was on top of his game in the 90's took his back 3 fingers right off the cue and actually pointing outwards from his body and level with the floor.

I believe the ideal is to have the back 3 fingers just lightly touching the butt in the address position BUT ONLY IF THE PLAYER CAN RESIST THE TEMPTATION OF TIGHTENING THOSE BACK 3 FINGERS DURING THE DELIVERY. They can tighten after striking the cueball but with far too many players that tightening will 'creep up' in the delivery and will start happening either right at the strike or a touch before it and this not only takes the butt of the cue off-line but also has the cue decelerating through the cueball and we all know what those two things cause, i.e. - MISSED POTS.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

Recently i have been struggling with my long potting, not sure where it was going wrong as i was convinced my grip wasnt over tightening, i went for an hour today and took Terrys advice about an overly loose grip and it worked wonders so thanks terry great advice, i also made sure i put in a front and back pause by over doing them slightly

[Sidd]

Thanks again Terry and others... This website is awesome. I went in again yesterday after reading and concentrating on the discussion here and keeping a cool head in the match time... Guess what, i won 5 of the 7 frames I played against a variety of players (winner stays on format).. Terry your last advice has not only comforted me but also given me the courage to try out the loose loose grip and it is producing results rapidly... this means my only known enemy is the tightening of the grip early in delivery and rest if perhaps fine enough for my level... Will keep practicing on that! Lets see.

[thelongbomber]

Thought I might share a few ideas - mostly from a mental point of view. For me, the grip is already a subconscious event I don't think about any more after 15 years of playing. If I'm centered and "in the zone", I can tell when the odd shot goes off badly and it's invariably the grip or alignment or both. I can also tell based on the shot at hand if I'm going to have gripping issues and setup stop signs mentally so that I focus a bit more when I'm down on the shot - like for example on the rail, or long shots, etc.

1. It seems that if we have confidence in the shot at hand AND know that we are going to pot the ball, the grip hand remains lose and free and the cue moves completely through the ball. ie, we stroke the cue with confidence.

2. For shots we aren't sure to make, we tend to grip the cue more. This happens because we think we aren't going to make it and so we don't release the cue fully during delivery.

3. When you aren't confident in your cue or tip, it will affect your nerves which then affects your grip hand on all shots. Few months back, I changed cues and there was always a small thought that the cue couldn't handle certain types of shots. I have a new cue from Terry at the moment that I'm very happy with and it's changed how I cue. My m8 made me start changing my own tips years ago and I'm thankful for it now because I know exactly what to expect and don't need to worry about it.

4. Grip diameter and bevel size play an absolutely crucial role. You should experiment with different grip sizes if you have changed cues. I hav gone through several over the years and found a particular setup that I favor. If you change grip diameter and bevel size, prepare to re-adapt.

5. If we think the cue is too light or too heavy, we will tend to over or under grip the cue thinking we need to compensate. We generally don't do this thinking consciously, it's mostly subconscious during the delivery stroke. Make sure to get a cue that feels right for you. As long as you can control cue acceleration and tip speed for the entire range of shots required, keep the weight you are comfortable with.

6. If you have an alignment/vision problem whereby you aren't visually behind the shot as you intended, and this problem doesn't get fixed, then you will not cue the shot properly because you can't see what you expect to see when you are down, which then makes the grip hand swerve or dip the cue into the shot which of course causes further gripping issues. Work hard on alignment and the rest becomes easy.

7. Slow, rhythmic feathers and backswing will contribute to a more calm mind which will allow your grip hand to remain free of tension.

8. Logically speaking, because there are more muscles in the hand and they are more sensitive to touch, it's only fair to assume the hand will also be more susceptible to fail us when we our nerves get to us.

9. The biggest fix for me for gripping issues was to accentuate pauses (sometimes front, less often back) and most definitely to significantly slow down the final backswing. The extra time let's me grip a bit more loosely, and let's me more precisely gauge cue speed and cue ball control. As you get older, you will then be able to slow the backswing down even more, so it's beneficial to learn.

[alabadi]

Sounds like the title of a song...lol

Alabbadi

[Sidd]

Thanks a lot Longbomber.... appreciated!

[Sidd]

I think I am there.. finally.... almost

So after my journey of trying hard and trial and error and experimenting; i believe i am almost there and I hope this time I am not wrong. I have been playing briliantly for the last two days and i know this isnt luck or my day kind of a thing but my hard work in technique is now yielding fruit. Thanks Terry for your patience and advice and also thanks to people like Nic and Nrage who have contributed, diretly and indirectly, and have guided me or helped me get guided on my own.

I went in to play yesterday and started playing just like that and lost the opening three frames. This was followed by loosing another two so I lost 5 in a row. Out of frustration I took a break and booked an empty table for 30 mins and did some solo and suddenly realised where or why I was wrong and I potted many balls without even trying hard in solo after correcting my GRIP and nothing else Then I came back and played with the same player who was commenting and making fun of me and said hey Sidd dont waste your energy you cant play me and I said its all right maybe I can learn from you and guess what I won 7 frames in a row from 5-0 down to 7-5 victory... Wow I cant explain what happened ... my technique and cueing was classical and I was in the zone or whatever it is. My oponent was in shock sheer shock and said Sidd what on earth was that all about LOL

I have been experimenting with my grip but wasnt getting it good. One mistake I did was to watch Ronnie all the time and notice his grip (terry knows that) and so I tried the second finger grip and it worsened things for me; did the baby finger off or curled around the butt grip and it sort of made me get lesser screw effect and I felt limited in my shots... Then I kept on thinking and thinking but nothing came ot my mind and then it was in this stupid little 30 mins solo that I realised what form of grip would suit me... i am sticking to that as now everything feels so relax normal and easy to me with this grip. I watched closely hendry and carter and noticed that in the formation of the grip they have tight inner forefinger and inner thumb hold and the rest is loose and so they can drive with that only... In my solo I came up with a method of my own, dont know if that is something someone does or not but it works wonders for me ... What I now do is that while going down or when I start my approach I sort of tighten my inner forefinger and thumb and that helps me keep everything else in the hand loose and then WALLAH.....!!!!! dont know how i got to this but tonight I played and won three frames and then did a solo for 20 minutes... and this is the reason why I know I am almost there.... In my solo I cleared off all reds with pinks (most) a few blacks and a couple of blues and then the colours and honestly I only missed about 3-5 pots AMAZING ISNT IT .. i was so deeply in to my practice that i didnt count any break but this is a jolly good start and I am flying high...!!!!!!!!