getting it wrong for 30 years

[cazmac1]

Hi all, I wanted to share my thoughts on some recent discovery's. For years I have based my technique on Joe Davis's
Book where he swears buy horizontals and verticals. When I was younger I believed that the ideal snooker stance/technique, would mean that the elbow of the cuing arm should be directly in line with the line of the shot. So I used to practice in front of a mirror and would say that I had what appeared to be a model stance, where every thing appeared to be in line. Now any of you that have been following my post in the sightright thread would have seen the videos that I posted. In these videos my elbow is almost on the line of the shot ( without being anal). Now with this set up I found that the cue is off line. With some experimentation I have found that in order to get the cue on line my elbow has to be inside of the cuing line. Now when I look at JH and SH two of the best players ever to pick up a cue both play with there cuing elbow inside of the vertical. I feel that reading the joe Davis book when I was younger put me on the wrong track and possibly ruined my snooker career before it ever got started.
I have been trying for the last 30+ years trying to ad hear to a model stance that not even joe davis himself played like. Whats the point of the post. Well one to share my sadness in getting it so wrong and two to let others know that in searching for the ideal you may actually be damaging you game.
My advice to members starting out would be to try and free your mind of preconceptions and to let your own game come to the fore. Also I found my fault with the aid of a laser, so if I did not have this tool I would still be thinking the cue was on line when it wasn't. My advice for any one starting out would be to either see a sighting coach or use a coach who has Dartfish or Terry Griffith's snooker lab.

Good Luck, and remember text book is not always best.

[mattyshinobi22]

dont think the joe davis book did steve davis any harm, has he at one point classed it has the bible. obviously styles change over time and new techniques are discovered and the old discarded. however i have come to learn you cannot become a carbon copy of any player, but you can achieve the same objective of straight cueing, which is end of day what we are all after. you have to find your own way of playing and make it has natural as possible.

[vmax4steve]

Joe Davis had the same style as Ronnie does, he drives through by dropping the elbow. For this to be effective then the cue arm must be straight behind the shot, otherwise when the elbow drops the cue will be taken off line.
Steve Davis doesn't drive through with the elbow even though he modelled his style on Joe, and he cocks his wrist outwards which Joe didn't do either.
Fact is that it doesn't matter where your elbow is in relation to the shot as long as the elbow doesn't drop before the strike. Ray Reardon won six world titles with a sticky out elbow and Willie Thorne made hundreds of maximums with his elbow tucked in, what more proof do you need.
Of course it would be better to have the elbow directly in line just in case the elbow does drop before the strike, but surely it is easier to learn to not drop the elbow before the strike than to change your stance completely to get directly in line.
So at the front pause your cue arm should be 90 degrees or slightly less to the horizontal so that the elbow doesn't drop before the strike.

[hotpot]

As V max said , it does,nt really matter where the elbow is as long as you deliver the cue straight . Take Joe Swail , Jamie cope for example theit arms are way off line but the cue must be in line and it stays in line throughout the shot . You have to find the right line and keep the right line from approach to execution , easier said than done though .

[Terry Davidson]

cazmac1:

If your elbow is not directly over the cue and on the line of aim then the only way you can have the cue on the line of aim is to make a minor adjustment in your grip (less or more wrist cock). This is turn means you have another item in your technique which you have to coordinate during the delivery.

See if you can get the correct wrist cock for you by having the butt of the cue directly under the long forearm bone or even have the cue slightly inside it as is the case with Higgins and Hendry. Look at the cue as being an extension of that long forearm bone (which actually drives the cue) but this doesn't necessarily mean the elbow is also directly over the cue, if you get my meaning.

But all that said, there have been many good players who didn't have the elbow directly over the cue and on the line of aim but rather learned to deliver the cue consistently straight despite that supposed 'flaw' from the ideal Joe Davis technique. Steve Davis had what I would call a severe wrist cock and his elbow was perfectly on the line of aim and this meant he went with the 'KISS' principle, keeping the items he had to coordinate at a minimum. He also didn't drop the elbow much on the delivery unless it was a very hard shot.

Terry

[arbitrage]

you found this out after 30 years...? lol. every body pun intended is different so what makes you think every stance should be the same? joe swail, peter ebdon, ricky walden etc etc...

[CoachGavin]

Just to point out that Davis actually changed his technique to drop the elbow more like Ronnie O sullivan. I think he did this in the late 90's whereas if you watch him in the 80's his elbow hardly moved at all. Now it drops considerably on some shots.

[alabadi]

I glad that this forum is here to help. 30 years to find out you were doing something wrong, shame it wasn't around when you were learning the game, i hope it takes me less that, i can't afford to wait 30 years, i'll be in a Zimmerframe by then....lol

Alabbadi

[cazmac1]

Just to point out that Davis actually changed his technique to drop the elbow more like Ronnie O sullivan. I think he did this in the late 90's whereas if you watch him in the 80's his elbow hardly moved at all. Now it drops considerably on some shots.

Hi Gavin, I was watching some videos of Steve the other day and I notice this as well, I wonder way he changed?
My be age played a part.

[itsnoteasy]

Just to point out that Davis actually changed his technique to drop the elbow more like Ronnie O sullivan. I think he did this in the late 90's whereas if you watch him in the 80's his elbow hardly moved at all. Now it drops considerably on some shots.

I remember commentators saying SD had changed his technique in the nineties, was this not due to SH coming along splitting the pack off the blue and playing a generally much more attacking game that SD had to try something to compete with the "new" type of snooker Hendry brought?

[cazmac1]

cazmac1:

If your elbow is not directly over the cue and on the line of aim then the only way you can have the cue on the line of aim is to make a minor adjustment in your grip (less or more wrist cock). This is turn means you have another item in your technique which you have to coordinate during the delivery.

See if you can get the correct wrist cock for you by having the butt of the cue directly under the long forearm bone or even have the cue slightly inside it as is the case with Higgins and Hendry. Look at the cue as being an extension of that long forearm bone (which actually drives the cue) but this doesn't necessarily mean the elbow is also directly over the cue, if you get my meaning.

But all that said, there have been many good players who didn't have the elbow directly over the cue and on the line of aim but rather learned to deliver the cue consistently straight despite that supposed 'flaw' from the ideal Joe Davis technique. Steve Davis had what I would call a severe wrist cock and his elbow was perfectly on the line of aim and this meant he went with the 'KISS' principle, keeping the items he had to coordinate at a minimum. He also didn't drop the elbow much on the delivery unless it was a very hard shot.

Terry

Before I reply to you terry I just want to thank everyone for their replies.

Firstly let me clear up some thing I'm not saying there is anything wrong with variations in styles or endorsing any one particular style. I'm was simply saying that I always thought that I had the perfect text book style. Only to find out that I was actually out by half an inch and cuing across the ball. To the naked eye you just can't see it and in the playing position you certainly can't.
Now Terry I done some experimentation and have found that the only way I can consistently get the cue on line is to tuck the my cue bridge arm in to the side of my face. I feel I owe you an apology as when ever you have suggested this to others I have always advised against it. I still believe that that the best way is not to tuck but if this is the only way to get the cue on line then it is what you have to do.
Before I started to tuck the the shoulder in I tried varying the grip between cocked and un-cocked for want of a better word. I found that the grip had no effect on the where the cue was in relation to the line of aim. By this I mean that I could rotate my hand as far out as it go and as far in as it could gone and the butt of the cue stayed in exactly the same position. As I was only looking at getting the cue on line I did not think to look at changing the grip in order to bring the elbow completely vertical.

Now I'm going to say something here that judging by some of the responses is going to be controversial. I found that even though the elbow was inside of the vertical that when I dropped the elbow the butt of the cue did not deviate from the line of the laser. So from my observation is is not necessary to have the elbow above directly over the line of aim at all ( in the vertical plain).
The important thing is that the the elbow does not move left or right on the drop. In my opinion this is aided by the chest contact. Having said this I would like to add that if the elbow was directly in line, it would lessen the chance of moving the elbow of line during the delivery.
I look forward to you replies

[cazmac1]

I remember commentators saying SD had changed his technique in the nineties, was this not due to SH coming along splitting the pack off the blue and playing a generally much more attacking game that SD had to try something to compete with the "new" type of snooker Hendry brought?

I have to say I liked steve's style before he started to drop the elbow.

[Inoffthered]

I have to say I liked steve's style before he started to drop the elbow.

Yes, I have to agree. 1984 - 1986 WC Finals his technique ( while subjective ), was as perfect you could get, esp. for someone of his height. BUT.. because he lost between 85 and 86 Steve felt compelled to 'change things' as this was the reason [in his mind] that had contributed to his downfall.

[itsnoteasy]

Caz i looked at your video clip again as you say its half an inch you are looking at,(at the rear end a lot less at the tip end ) you deliver the cue perfectly as the laser line is in the same position at the end as at the start(very very accurate) did you try moving your forearm a little left , this will leave the elbow in the same place and get you that perfect position, or is it that what you have tried you can replicate easier , it must be very hard to change consistently such small margiines especially at the end we cant see

[cazmac1]

Caz i looked at your video clip again as you say its half an inch you are looking at,(at the rear end a lot less at the tip end ) you deliver the cue perfectly as the laser line is in the same position at the end as at the start(very very accurate) did you try moving your forearm a little left , this will leave the elbow in the same place and get you that perfect position, or is it that what you have tried you can replicate easier , it must be very hard to change consistently such small margiines especially at the end we cant see

No all I've done so far is tuck the bridge arm shoulder in tight to my cheek, this has had the effect of moving the cue over to the left as you look at it. I have made another video but I've got he kid's in taking the p out of me. i might put it up. It's early days but I will keep making minor adjustments and see how this in turn effect my play. Cause and effect if you like.