Clearing the Colours - Blue to Pink Troubles

[nrage]

All well and good Terry but seeing as the cue ball will deflect and arc when using side, what is the aiming point for the blue at the correct pace needed for position on the pink ??

I know you didn't ask me but .. it depends on the cloth, the power used (Terry mentioned P4) and how elevated the butt of the cue is. Thicker cloth - more arc, less power - more arc, more elevation - more arc. The deflection should be fairly constant for most cloths/power/elevations and is unique to each cue. So, I'm not sure how anyone can answer the question as asked..

[Strickimicki]

Well this is not a shot that I like to use, but yesterday I tried it because of this thread. I like normally to leave myself just off straight on the blue so I can play a soft run through shot on and of the side coushion. So I tried it and after a couple of shots to get the weight right and and the amount of check side needed, I was getting (nearly) perfect postition 5 out of ten times. The problem was though, I was nearly always to low on the pink (on the shots that weren't (nearly) perfect) rather to high. This should be quite easy to cure though so I'm not worried about it.

I think that exactly these kind of threads are the kind that help other players and would like to thank Deepscrew for starting it!

Brian.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax and everyone:

OK, I just set up the shot on my table and there was one thing very wrong with my description, although not too serious. When I set up an exact 3/4-ball pot on the blue I found the potting angle to be thick enough that I could just roll the blue in near dead weight and end up perfect on the pink. So forget 3/4-ball.

So I'm going to change the angle a bit to more 1/2-ball cut on the blue as the angle on the blue pot has to be such that you can't just roll the blue in dead weight and have to use the top cushion with check side as we were discussing.

So to answer vmax's question:

First of all, I always tell newer and inexperienced players to NEVER use side at all except on the break-off or when the object ball is near a pocket and there's very large room for error. So in this case, I'm going to assume the players who are going to use check side off the top cushion are fairly accomplished and capable of running 50 breaks or better.

Secondly 'deflection and arc' on the cueball. If a player is reasonably accomplished then of course using R2 he should know what his 'aim-off' will be when compensating for the 'deflection' of the cueball and would know his actual line of aim will be a little thinner than a centre-ball shot. I would say at R2/P4 there would be no discernible 'arc' on the cueball or one so small that it can be ignored for all practical purposes. (Now if the player is on a dead slow table with really dead cushions then he might have to raise the power up to P6 or even P7 and then there might be a slight arc with R2 but still not too much so it can be ignored when thinking about the positional shot.

As for pace or power on the shot that will depend completely on the speed of the table. A pro will likely use only P3 whereas as I said above on a dead slow table it might be necessary to use P6 or even P7.

vmax...I can't tell you what the aiming point is for potting the blue as all I can say is it would be a little thinner than a centre-ball stroke since you will be deflecting the cueball to the left when using right-hand side, but how much is a matter of your cue, the cloth speed, the weight of the cueball, etc. etc.

This is why I said players should get on a table by themselves in solo practice and try this shot, as stricki has done with apparently good results unless they are proficient enough to just go out and try it in a match and I would think if they were that proficient they probably already use this shot both for the pink and earlier in the frame for position on a black or red.

For me the most difficult type of shot using side off the cushion is when I'm trying to get from blue to yellow or a red near baulk where I have to go between the baulk colours and come back out past the baulkline again. On different tables this shot can be a real challenge although I can do it fine on my own table but when I play in a tournament with pretty bad tables I usually go the other way and use running side and the bottom and side cushions.

Terry

[Strickimicki]

Secondly 'deflection and arc' on the cueball. If a player is reasonably accomplished then of course using R2 he should know what his 'aim-off' will be when compensating for the 'deflection' of the cueball and would know his actual line of aim will be a little thinner than a centre-ball shot.

I was wondering if I should start a new thread on this, but I'm sure there has already been one.

Talking about deflection of the cueball, I was showing a newbie at my club a couple of things just the other day and I was explaining he should not use side until he feels more sure of himself. He asked why and I explained to him that the deflection does play a role, and that to calculate that you need experience. I told him that the only time I have seen that deflection hasn't played a role, was with an Acuerate cue that Chris Hendry brought to our club on one of his selling tours. Well this lad I was showing a couple of things to had an acuerate cue so I had a go. I played a stun shot across the table on a straight blue with R5, and I stopped the Cue ball on the blue spot and watched it swivel on the spot for 20 secs. I still don't know how they do this, and I wouldn't swap my TW cue for the world. But it is interesting to see that it is possible. My cue won't do that, I have to allow for throw off and calculate my actions before playing any shot with side.

Brian.

[alabadi]

Clearing the Colours - Blue to Pink Troubles

I think that the only way to get good at the original shot asked in this post is to practice it until you are comfortable with it.

Myself I find it a difficult shot to do it the pro way I prefer the way [b] Terry[\b] describes either finishing 3/4 ball or slightly less but not straight and roll the blue dead ball for a straight or near straight pink.

To do it the pro way I would and have done is

1) set up a 1/2 ball blue from the Yellow side of the table and make a mark and just pot the blue to allow the white to just pass the pink to the green side. At this point I don't worry about position just the path the white is taking. Until i am happy with the height to play.

2) next I practice the same shot and concentrate on power to get the cueball just a bit lower that the pink spot. I would do this until I am happy with the height and power. From both sides of the table.

3) this point is something I think every player who has a max break under 50 me included not use side or use very conservatively , but for this type of shot it's necessary so I just practice using side not worrying where the cueball goes just to pot the blue centre pocket, obviously this will take many practice sessions to get right and is trial and error.
But once you master it and I would suggest start with slow shots and then build up the power until comfortable, that's it.

4) now i would put all 3 previous points together. By now you know the height and power to some extent and the amount of side which is check side for the power so just get down and play it.

You will find that if everything goes well and you cue well the blue should go in center pocket the white just miss the pink and the white check off the top cushion but will not finish ideally below the pink at best will be parallel with it.

The reason as Terry suggested with check side the white will slow down after coming off the top cushion, so you have to put more power, which means adjusting your height and adjusting the side ...etc , you can see where this is going, and to make things worse if you play on a different table in different conditions , change your cue or tip all this will mean the shot will change ... Who said this game is easy...lol .

This is the reason I avoid playing side unless absolutely necessary for position.

So to conclude , I think everyone here has put in fair comments this is my 10 Pence worth .

If you really want to play this shot , break down each element and practice individually until mastered then once you have all the pieces of the jigsaw combine them and practice from both sides of the table, although I would consider other options that some have suggested .

Good luck in your practice

Alabbadi

[hotpot]

as has been mentioned , when using right hand side the white will go to the left and vice versa , how much depends on your cue and the table but if you play below centre then you will find it will do the opposite and will swrerve to the same side as the side you putting on the ball .

[vmax4steve]

vmax...I can't tell you what the aiming point is for potting the blue as all I can say is it would be a little thinner than a centre-ball stroke since you will be deflecting the cueball to the left when using right-hand side, but how much is a matter of your cue, the cloth speed, the weight of the cueball, etc. etc.Terry

As someone who uses side a lot Terry this question wasn't for me but for everyone else reading this thread who wanted to try the positional shot you proposed but who don't use side or only use it for simple over the pocket shots.
I think it's better to explain the whole concept of any shot with side for this reason, otherwise beginners will try the shot, fail at it, because they have no idea about the deflection and arcing of the cue ball, and simply give up playing with side altogether which would be a shame as side can improve your positional play a great deal.
Of course you can't tell anyone exactly where to aim because of the variables involved but you can give them a good idea, a starting point as it were.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax & everyone:

For the shot we are talking about (1/2-ball blue to the middle) the best solution would be to learn how to get from brown to blue so you leave around a 3/4-ball shot on the blue and can just roll it in. The best and most consistent way to achieve this starts with the shot on the green ball where you should try to get the cueball 2" or so in front of the green spot or on that line. Then it's a simple stun shot to the side cushion (with no side) to about 2-3" from the middle pocket jaw and around 1ft more or less out into the table so you're not too near the cushion. I feel learning this shot when clearing the colours is the most important one to learn.

However for those that end up with a 1/2-ball shot on the blue, hopefully the cueball is far enough away from the cushion for a hand-on-the-table shot. This would mean perhaps 12" to 20" or so from the blue, so less than 2ft. In these circumstances using H7/R2 we would have to compensate for cueball deflection by aiming a little thin on the blue and the cueball at this pace and amount of side should not arc at all unless the player uses a high bridge and raises the butt of the cue to get screw and then there might be a very small arc and he would have to compensate further for that by adjusting his aim to pot the blue centre pocket. This is not the best way to apply screw but there are a lot of players who do this as they find their success with soft screw shots is better (at least as far as the cueball is concerned).

So lower your bridge and keep the cue as level as possible and drive through the cueball, no matter what power you're using.

After contact with the blue there should be no arc on the cueball at all or at least one that you can see and this doesn't enter into consideration for the positional side of the shot. With the H7/R2 on a 3/4-ball blue the cueball should miss the pink on the far side by 1-2" (depending how high you hit the cueball), hit the top cushion somewhere between 6" to 10" from the black spot and then check (hopefully) up near a line around 1ft to 1.5ft and if it travel around 3.5ft to 4ft you should be left with anywhere from a 7/8th to dead in to 1/2-ball pot on the pink and you can easily gain position on the black.

Once you learn how to do these shots with the colours on spot it will be a simple matter to adjust your stroke for when the balls are not on spot (within reason, although I know the colours can sometimes get REALLY messed up and then all bets are off).

Terry

[alabadi]

i was practicing today for at least 90 minutes with a 1/2 ball blue from either side of the table, its not easy to get the correct position on the pink.

i probably got 2-3 out of 10 correct side of pink other times i either finished parallel with the pink or on the cushion.
i prefer finishing 3/4 on blue and then just role the blue in to finish straightish on pink.

Alabbadi

[Terry Davidson]

As I said above, getting the 3/4-ball blue is the ideal however often things go wrong and we either end up with that 1/2-ball shot or else a shot on the blue sending the cueball towards baulk and a player should master both of those shots since no one can guarantee he will always end up with a 3/4-ball blue from the baulk end of the table.

Terry

[tomw]

Hello,

Don't forget this is the "pro" way to do things... I understand that players with a high break of around 30-40 are now trying to play this shot consistently. I don't think they should bother trying this, before they can make a (let's say) 50-break without using any sidespin at all (master the basics first).

I'm a little bit more advanced (made a few centuries), and I don't even like to use this shot, mainly because the tables I have to play on are so different!
I think there are easier ways to (start and learn to) clear the colours:
1) the way Terry described, but roll the blue in and take the pink to the middle if the angle on the blue was too big to hold for a pink to one of the black pockets.
2) I'm left-handed (right-handers can stop reading this point) and have another method of clearing the colours... I make sure I have an angle on the brown which leads the cueball to the baulk cushion, and then play for position on the blue on the "green side" of the table. Then I roll the blue in and have position on the pink on "my good side" of the table (and so the margin of error is bigger) :-)

Nevertheless, great explanation of the way the top players play the shot!

Greetings
Tom

[deano147]

Clearing the Colours - Blue to Pink Troubles

I play the same shot without side. Just a bit of screw. I try to avoid side like the plague until its the only way to play the shot. Practice it a few times without side and just screw to avoid the pink