The reason for cue ball jump while attempting deep screw with power

[Sidd]

At the exact point when your tip strikes the cue-ball that is when your hand should get to the fully closed position, thatsbwhats known as timing, dont need hit balls hard if you time the ball well.

This is correct however while closing the fingers one has to be very careful not to close them before striking the white or even at the time of striking the white becasue it may in turn induce the snatch effect. If that is the case then one might develop a tendency to close the fingers just a fraction earlier before making impact and hence decelerate... If that is correct then how you defined timing is not something that i quite follow...

All senior players and coaches out there: please comment on that and define timing.... Nic, Terry, Coach Gavin, Nrage.. what do you guys say???

[nrage]

All senior players and coaches out there: please comment on that and define timing

(I am neither a senior player, nor a coach, but since you asked..)

Timing is one of those things which seems to mean something different to everyone you ask, some people don't even know what you're talking about if you ask them what "timing" is. But, it's something we've all *felt* at some stage or another. If you're like me (not a great player) then your sense of timing is something which comes and goes. When you've got it, everything just works, and when you loose it it feels like you're having to force the balls round the table.

I think the basis of timing (for everyone) is a subconscious knowledge (kinesthetically learned) of the tip of the cue and moment of impact. This knowledge allows your subconscious to control the cue correctly for any given shot ensuring it continues to accelerate beyond the contact point and ensuring it doesn't move offline before the contact point, and in the case of players that seem to get an amazing amount of screw it means being able to accelerate the cue in sync with the white as it moves away such that the tip stays in contact longer, allowing them to apply more action to the ball.

As you can imagine, learning this takes sufficient practice and more than that, consistency in practice so that your subconscious learns the "timing" of your personal stroke. If you start to change bridge length, or cue, .. then you will subtly alter your "timing" and it will feel wrong, and take more time to adjust.

Timing is not something that can be controlled consciously, it takes sufficient practice and feeling to learn and control. An experienced player not only has good timing, they can also adjust their timing rapidly because they have leaned how to feel and adjust their timing in any given situation.

[frazz]

If u close before or after contact you will miss-time the shot therefor you wont get desired affect from the shot, believe me.and the guy asking for senior players and coaches to comment, i've been on the main tour before, play in the main tour ranking events this year based on q school results and have been coached from world snooker coaches before, i know what i am talking about

[Sidd]

Thanks for the explanation Nrage... Makes sense yet hard to achieve with consistency.

Frazz: No offence to your talent; I did not know if you are playing professionally. i still do not follow though. Maybe nobody ever point that out to me in that way. But for a person like me who has had a habit of snatching on the cue before completing the shot (wrongly talked in to it by a club mate) and have been seeking advice from Terry to improve on that. If I were to follow that I might start clutching again. Maybe it comes to you easily that is why you can put it easily like that- closing the hand at the point of impact but then again if you do that one might induce the snatch at some stage.

Anyway, i was going through the forum search and came to a thread in which I believe Terry and Coach Gavin had explained timing as immaculately as possible... According to that and i am sure we can all follow that as it makes proper sense as well- timing means allowing the tip to remain in touch with the cue ball a fraction more like playing the shot in a way that the tip contact with teh cue ball is increased or is there for a fraction of a second more... through this manner one can impart the spin to the cue ball more than usual and hence get more reaction from the cueball with even less power... just like how Ros does and he does it all the time every time so his timing is always great.

Makes proper sense doesnt it and in order to achieve that one has to have a very very slow backswing and then starting the final delivery very very slowly and then building pace towards the end of the delivery and hence timing the shot properly. I went in to play tonight and tried this while in a match and you guys cant actually believe how well i was playing tonight and was potting almost everything that came to me way... won 5 of the 7 frames I played and the mates were in a state of shock really... I hope if I can improve on that things would further improve for me with consistency... !!! lets see about that

[frazz]

Timing is about the close of the grip mate, i maybe am not making it clear enough but basically from the backswing stop position you should be accelarating to the white, your hand should be closing throughout the forward motion and as the tip makes contact with the white this is when your hand should become closed, from there you follow through until your grip hits your chest ideally, some go slightly further than that like ronnie, try and get on youtube and see if there any tutorials or videos of shots from behind the player looking at the grip hand.

[DandyA]

If u close before or after contact you will miss-time the shot therefor you wont get desired affect from the shot, believe me.and the guy asking for senior players and coaches to comment, i've been on the main tour before, play in the main tour ranking events this year based on q school results and have been coached from world snooker coaches before, i know what i am talking about

interesting discussion ...

sidd, I don't know if you know but I believe "frazz" is Fraser Patrick who has been on the main tour I think ... see for instance http://www.snooker.org/res/index.asp...34&season=2012

frazz, I hear what you are saying and if that works for you, clearly that's fine, you are a much better player than I will ever be ... having said that, I guess you are starting off with a really loose grip which needs to be tightened to get the required drive through the cueball - so, of course, that grip must be tightened at the moment of impact - too early will snatch the cue, too late you won't get the drive ...

so that's all fine except, and this is only my opinion, it's perfectly possible to play with a "medium" grip throughout the stroke rather than a "loose and then tightened" grip as you prefer ...

but, however you "time" the grip, "timing" in terms of the power and spin you can impart to the cueball is a physics thing as described well by nrage ... keep the cue on the correct line and accelerate it to prolong the contact between tip and cueball to maximise the amount of energy transferred - either linear (speed) or angular (spin) or both ...

Timing is one of those things which seems to mean something different to everyone you ask, some people don't even know what you're talking about if you ask them what "timing" is. But, it's something we've all *felt* at some stage or another. If you're like me (not a great player) then your sense of timing is something which comes and goes. When you've got it, everything just works, and when you loose it it feels like you're having to force the balls round the table.

I think the basis of timing (for everyone) is a subconscious knowledge (kinesthetically learned) of the tip of the cue and moment of impact. This knowledge allows your subconscious to control the cue correctly for any given shot ensuring it continues to accelerate beyond the contact point and ensuring it doesn't move offline before the contact point, and in the case of players that seem to get an amazing amount of screw it means being able to accelerate the cue in sync with the white as it moves away such that the tip stays in contact longer, allowing them to apply more action to the ball.

[frazz]

U don't need to play with a loose grip to do what I am describing, my grip aint that loose but when you get to back of backswing your grip should be "open" by this I mean your thumb and forefinger still together closed but other 3 fingers loosen off, not off the cue but loosen around the butt and as you go through the forward motion it should close naturally. Whether your grip is loose or extremely tight it should loosen even slightly on backswing to maintain a level cue otherwise you will be pulling the cue upwards which aint what you wanna do

[Sidd]

Thanks for your response DandyA; its much helpful... Now I can easily relate what i read off the thread, what nrage stated and how frazz explained it. No i didn't know before who Frazz was..sorry for that again but I consider myself a student of the game so I never meant any offence. i hope its no offence taken as no offence intended...


I think now I can make better sense of the whole thing. And thanks for your comments which helped me in understanding the concept yes indeed in order to cut down on my snatching I play with a medium grip (Terry coached me that as Steve Davis also once explained it in his coaching videos- and he asks you to maintain that grip Throughout the shot) so I maintain a medium grip till the end of delivery, yes my fingers come back to hold the cue as Frazz said but their hold on the cue remains nice and loose and easy even in the end... if I were to follow closing of hand at the point of impact to improve timing then I might start clutching again...! i will not change this manner of grip until terry so approves of it for me.


Similarly dandA your point also has helped me greatly... Yes indeed in both ways timing helps now I get it better- just like in cricket if you hit the ball before time you might get and edge and if you hit it later then the ball might not even clear the circle I have also experienced this but did not know what it was like sometimes i do not drive and my shot makes a funny sound even though i follow through but the CB feels funny after impact with OB and I miss those shots as well. This is what I do mostly becasue in order not to clutch maybe I am overcompensating by fear and not then driving through properly and ending in mistimed shots?


Another point that I can connect to is that when I am playing well screw shot is my favourite and i can do that so easily to almost any distance provided the CB and Ob are not that far. I have noticed that sometimes i cant screw with the rest (bad timing maybe) but then at times you wont believe but I can screw with the rest to almost the length of the table. I now remember a comment a mate made in appreciation; I potted the pink to the right of the green spot with CB just behind it and it was a straight pot and I screwed back to the black with the rest... my mate said that people can do that but they need power to do so but when you screwed you played a soft shot and took the CB to the black and that is a solid technique... I think now that when I did that my timing would have been excellent and since in that shot (rest play) there is no closing of hand or fingers (but quite the opposite opening of the fingers slightly) so the only thing can be that the tip made longer contact with the CB and imparted greater spin with lesser effort.


OK guys; having said all that i will have to be back to learning again. So last night when i played well I had in mind the timing factor and since I didnt know much I sort of tried to make longer contact of the tip to CB intentionally and well believe me or not it worked I was playing proper getting extra reaction from the CB with lesser power and lesser effort and I could make the CB dance to my will (a dream of every snooker player) I also noticed another thing guys; the feel of the shot as well as the sound of shots was different like solid like proper... but then I lost it after 3-4 frames and started missing (was tired after the day's work as well).. so is that method ok like intentionally keeping in mind to make CB and tip contact for a fraction longer as it worked well for me ? is that also true that while doing so and intentionally making more contact of the tip and CB I was perhaps closing the fingers at the right time without knowing it???

[nrage]

U don't need to play with a loose grip to do what I am describing, my grip aint that loose but when you get to back of backswing your grip should be "open" by this I mean your thumb and forefinger still together closed but other 3 fingers loosen off, not off the cue but loosen around the butt and as you go through the forward motion it should close naturally. Whether your grip is loose or extremely tight it should loosen even slightly on backswing to maintain a level cue otherwise you will be pulling the cue upwards which aint what you wanna do

I'm pretty sure frazz and I are on the same page. I think "open" and "close" are better terms than loosen/tighten to describe this. As frazz says here, your grip will open during the back swing to allow the cue to remain level. The actual grip pressure your hand is exerting will stay the same. One the stroke itself the grip will close again, and at the point of impact it should be in the fully closed position that it had at address. Part of "timing" is getting it closed just on the moment of impact, not before, and not after. All throughout this action the actual grip pressure does not need to change, and probably should not change. A little bit of a squeeze might help some people with the timing of the close, but there is a risk you'll close early, and too much additional grip pressure will be like applying a brake to the acceleration, and often translates up the arm engaging the elbow and shoulder muscles causing the butt of the cue to pull up, dropping the tip.

Base line is; grip tension should be almost constant, not tight but closed so the cue cannot move around. It should be relaxed enough so the hand will open on the back swing and you want to gently close (squeeze) it again on the stroke itself so that it is fully closed at the point of impact, thus "timing" the stroke.

[pottr]

Sidd, is there a pro, coach or at least a decent player (makes regular tons) who plays in your club or at a club nearby?

If so, that should be your port of call with regard to tips on improving your technique. I'm quite decent I feel and I know that I couldn't get my head around all the suggestions and analogies that get posted.

Without being able to see your technique and correct it (along with the residual errors you pick up as a result of that change) there is no way anyone can help you. It's like learning to drive a car, you need the instructor there to help you along. Some things simply just don't translate from the written word.

All the best,
Jack

[Sidd]

Thanks for the responses guys. Thanks Nrage for explaining the terms, things are clear to me now. I think i wasnt closing the hand properly before due ot the fear of inducing an early snatch; will work on that. The timing concept is pretty much clear to me now and its good to note that improving timing also means that the drive will be improved along with it and hence the follow through and acceleration; so two great benefits of one thing here. I think that due to the fear of the snatch I was not closing the hand properly at impact and hence carrying on with the open or shall I say semi-open hand till the end and hence not getting the right timing in the shot. Will work on that.

Last night I went in for a few frames and had the timing thing in mind but then unlike the night before things did not work properly for me and I was not able to play well. I was considering to make longer tip CB contact but it wasnt coming for me. But now that I know its about closing of the hand (without putting any additional pressure on it) I will try that in practice and try to get an awareness as to how it can improve timing and try to cement it in to my technique.

Jack (Pottr) i will have to learn it the hard way; you are right some things cant be translated or interpreted without having part of the meaning lost in the process however I have played in three different clubs in my city and could not find a professional player/coach. The only professional coach available to me would be 4 to 5 hours drive away; cant do that right now due to office routine and being extra busy. But then you are right I need to find a way- untill then TSF is my only solution...

[throtts]

Sidd,

How many hours a week do you play, practice and match play combined..?..

[pottr]

Jack (Pottr) i will have to learn it the hard way; you are right some things cant be translated or interpreted without having part of the meaning lost in the process however I have played in three different clubs in my city and could not find a professional player/coach. The only professional coach available to me would be 4 to 5 hours drive away; cant do that right now due to office routine and being extra busy. But then you are right I need to find a way- untill then TSF is my only solution...

If you're serious about improving your game then that 4-5 hour drive would be the sacrifice you would need to make. I don't think and coaching advice on here will be a solution as it's not possible to identify the problem.

[Sidd]

you are right Pottr; I am thinking of making this sacrifice soon; lets see...

Throtts: Well I normally play 5-6 days a week sometimes even 7 and at an average i would play for like 4 hours a day so it makes it 16-20 hours a week... However, practice I cant do normally in the club where i go and rarely get a chance so its like not more than a mere 2-3 hours a week so its mostly all matchplay for me...

[alabadi]

I think this post has been one of the most useful things i have learnt, i think like many we have heard of timing but really didn't know what it really meant, i myself was under the impression it meant a smooth and controlled acceleration.

now litening to some of the better players on here i have a much better idea and can start to really focus on it in my practice.
i recently bought the Nic Barrow 10 DVD set, and last night i was going through DVD 5 and coincedently he was going through timing on there.

he mentioned too that keeping the tip of the cue in contact with the cueball as long as possible in a smooth straight action is the key to getting better reaction on the cueball and that this is all down to timing. by getting the feel of when the tip makes contact with the cueball is something that will give a player the timing to follow through.

ill not go into a lot of detail however there were lots of practice routines that one can pratice to get that feel. i hope that i will in the coming weeks be doing some practice to see if any of these routines will give me better timing and ultimately more control.

i would like to thank all you knowledgeable players and coaches who spend time for us guys to give as much information as possible on topics of difficulty like this one it's a great help.

Alabbadi