Eyes Wide Shut

[DandyA]

I'm enjoying reading this thread, a lot of interesting comments from a variety of posters ... I'll single out this one below as it sums up (better than I can say) my opinion ...

So, it's hardly as simple as right or wrong.. and this isn't even taking into account the fact that you will change over time. For example you might need to look at the white now to ensure you strike it where you want, but later when your action is more consistent you may no longer need that guide and could look at the object ball gaining some other advantage there.

So, yes, your original statement is basically correct. There isn't necessarily a "right" way for everyone, just like the "right" shot isn't always the same for everyone (in the exact same situation). Because, people are all different.

exactly ... I used to be an object ball sighter but I switched to cue ball sighting deliberately earlier this year ... I'm enjoying it, I personally see little or no loss of accuracy but my cue action is definitely improving (imo) ... it's improving because that's all I see - at the front pause prior to final backswing and delivery, I focus on the cue ball but I can clearly watch my cue coming back and going through the cue ball ...

I get very instant feedback whether I hit the cue ball straight and well cos I saw it ... that's a big benefit ... perhaps, if I get my cue action perfect in all circumstances, I might well switch back to object ball sighting, I don't know whether I will but I certainly reserve the right to ... to repeat, I'm not saying object ball sighting is wrong and cue ball sighting is right - all I am doing is discussing my own personal experience of using both

[DandyA]

I am not superior to you and your editing of my post picking out what you believe to be condescending remarks says more about you than it does about me. You are clearly on the defensive here because you believe you have found a better way to play but the evidence you have provided, a four point (equal to one ball) increase in your high break proves nothing has changed.

I highlighted in bold all the important points. if I wanted to shout I would have increased the size of the text and added emoticons for emphasis, once again you are on the defensive.

Your point that there are other reasons why a player may miss a shot rather than take their eyes of the contact point of the object ball, I would counter by saying that the reason these other things happen is because the player takes their eyes of the contact point of the object ball.
It's keeping the eyes on the contact point of the object ball that keeps the cue in line, keeps the head and body still, is essential to the timing and is the reason why long pots are harder than close pots. It's harder to focus on this contact point when at distance, which is why all the great players have fantastic eyesight and lose this as they get older.
By your reasoning all long shots would be as easy to make through cue ball sighting as close shots are, yet they are not.
Think about it DandyA, I'm trying to help you here. It's not simply about looking at the object ball, it's about looking at the contact point on the object ball at the exact moment of the strike.
Which is something that all poor players do not do and those players will never get any better until they do this basic thing. It's not easy, it's very, very difficult to do, I fail to do it 50% of the time which makes me a very inconsistant player and it's incredibly frustrating and makes me extremely angry at times because I feel that I am doing it but on reflection I always realise that I haven't been doing it.
My problem with this lies in my natural timing which is very, very fast. I simply point the cue at the cue ball. look up at the object ball and shoot. I have to shoot as soon as my eyes focus on the contact point of the object ball, if I don't then my eyes leave this point and I miss. If I shoot a fraction of a second too soon or too late then I miss because I'm looking elsewhere. I've tried deliberately focussing on this contact point for longer but I end up staring into space at nothing in particular and play even worse. It's simple anxiety in my inconsistancy that causes me to take my eyes off the contact point and to deliberately think about it makes me a poor player.

The only time it all comes together and I play great is when I'm thinking about nothing and then it just happens and it just flows, and then as soon as that happens I think, 'hey I'm playing great here, I must be...........' and then it disappears again. If I can steer someone like yourself away from the snooker madness that I inhabit then I will try no matter how condescending you think my comments are. I know what you are going through and I know the way out.

It's the number one reason why shots are missed, you hear the commentators saying all the time when a pro misses an easy ball that he simply took his eye off the pot. What they really mean is that he took his eye off the contact point of the object ball at the exact moment of the strike.

You have to acknowledge to yourself that you are wrong, mistaken, taken a wrong path whatever you want to call it and trust in those who know better than you do, who know better than I do.

vmax, we're going to go round in circles here so I don't believe there's any point interrupting what is, I think, a good discussion about sighting with you and me arguing ... I'll make a few points about your posting above and then you can reply to me if you wish and then perhaps we can leave it there ...

shouting ... I was referring to you posting a whole paragraph in capital letters, not bold or italics ... SHOUTING IS NOT NECESSARY AND YOU WON'T LIKE ME SHOUTING AT YOU ANY MORE THAN I LIKE YOU SHOUTING AT ME ... you are trying to wind me up, sir ... oh, and you didn't appreciate my little joke that my ears work perfectly (when obviously it's my eyes that read this forum) ...

you say my high break has improved has improved by one ball (a brown ball) ... wherever did you get that from? I certainly didn't say that ... my previous high break was 27, the last 6 colours ... my new high break is 31 (blue, 3 blacks, 5 reds which, as the late great Eric Morecambe once said, but not necessarily in that order) ...

so my high break has risen from 6 balls to 9 balls, I've also done a handful of 10 ball breaks although they were always less than 31 ... I haven't done an 11 ball break, I'd love to and indeed I think number of consecutive balls potted more important than points scored ...

so get real! it only takes 36 consecutive pots to hit a 147 so I'm already over 25% there ... errr ... that's a joke by the way ...

your quote - "By your reasoning all long shots would be as easy to make through cue ball sighting as close shots are, yet they are not."

I didn't say that because obviously they are not ... say a black on it's spot with cue ball 1ft away compared to the same thing with the cue ball 2ft away ... my schoolboy physics is a bit rusty but I'd say the 2ft pot requires twice the accuracy of the 1ft shot ... don't even think you need to get sines or cosines involved (thank god) ...

so I didn't say that, what I did say was, since I look at the cue ball, I am not scared by one more than the other, they make no difference to me ... that's a completely different proposition ... of course, I'd expect to make the 1ft pot a lot more often than the 2ft pot ...

your quote ... "You have to acknowledge to yourself that you are wrong, mistaken, taken a wrong path whatever you want to call it and trust in those who know better than you do, who know better than I do."

do I really? what exactly is going to happen if I prefer not to? are the snooker police going to come round, smash my front door down at 6am in the morning and arrest me for GBH (grievous billiards harm) to snooker balls? no, of course they are not ... so perhaps you could choose your words more wisely

oh bugger, I was trying to avoid doing emoticons

your turn, vmax ...

[throtts]

I do not get why any player would need to look at the cue ball continually to make sure his is striking it in the right place to achieve positioning. The decision of where the tip needs to be on the cue ball is decided when your standing up behind the shot, thus being past tense to a degree the second after you drop down in to your stance position, you may very quickly glance at your tip position but your certainly not focusing on it.

As we all know as snooker players- what is the priority when down on the shot, it to pot the object ball. So you got to hit it in the correct spot.

I will practise today and try this looking at the cue ball subject for a period, just out of interest.

[pottr]

Don't do it Throtts!

I flirted with it years ago and it damn near wrecked my game.
It can trick you into thinking that it's working but the effort is exhausting.

When I confessed what I was doing to my mentor at the time. He said that when I was CB aiming I was a lot stiller on the shot. This was what caused me to belueve it had some merit... My form dipped drastically.

As soon as I got over it and reverted to the OB way of aiming, reminding myself to remain still. I started playing class again in no time.

The second you start thinking 'where am I aiming' you're lost!

Pushing the cue through straight and remaining still as you do it are the most important aspects of the cue action.

[Terry Davidson]

I believe pottr has it correct. When you get down on the line of aim and do your feathering your eyes move between the cueball and object ball. Then the front pause and (ideally) your eyes lock on the spot on the cueball you want to hit and then you start your backswing.

Somewhere during the backswing, like near the end, or at the rear pause or at the start of the delivery the eyes should move to the object ball. For older geezers like myself, because our eyes will take longer to focus we have to either lengthen the rear pause which causes a lot of problems or else lock the eyes on the object ball at the front pause after I've checked the cue tip on the cueball.

I believe this is the way it should be done however there are some very good players (albeit younger ones) who take one last look at the cueball just before the tip makes contact. I have tried this method but it totally screws up my natural rhythm, which is derived from my eye rhythm.

If a player stays absolutely still during the backswing and delivery then there's no reason why he should miss a ball no matter where his eyes are looking but everyone knows rhythm and timing are very important and I find it's much better to focus on the object ball and try and hit it with my tip, which forces a natural rhythm for me and also encourages me to drive through the cueball and this makes me more consistent.

I've tried the cueball method and it just doesn't work for me at all as I seem to lose all reference to the object ball, which is after all my target. I don't agree with Gavin's comment above about the dartboard and to me the dartboard in darts is identical to the object ball in snooker. It is the target we are attempting to hit correctly.

Terry

[throtts]

Yes, Terry, I agree. If your aiming at the treble 20 in darts then that's what we should look at. I think Gavin agrees too, it's just we are all slightly explaining differently...lol..

[throtts]

Don't do it Throtts!

I flirted with it years ago and it damn near wrecked my game.
It can trick you into thinking that it's working but the effort is exhausting.

When I confessed what I was doing to my mentor at the time. He said that when I was CB aiming I was a lot stiller on the shot. This was what caused me to belueve it had some merit... My form dipped drastically.

As soon as I got over it and reverted to the OB way of aiming, reminding myself to remain still. I started playing class again in no time.

The second you start thinking 'where am I aiming' you're lost!

Pushing the cue through straight and remaining still as you do it are the most important aspects of the cue action.

Hi potter,

I should have said, "a very brief period" .

Yes, I agree, keeping still and push the cue through straight is paramount..

[itsnoteasy]

For me its a must to look at contact point, not white ball, but i can see you could get away with eyes on white at close range, so i would like to ask the white ball watchers how their long potting is(say eight feet and over) could someone who cues this way please put up a video of some long blues from baulk line and blue down round the pink spot(just plain ball pots) i would be very interested to see it and it would certainly settle the argument for me.

[vmax4steve]

your quote ... "You have to acknowledge to yourself that you are wrong, mistaken, taken a wrong path whatever you want to call it and trust in those who know better than you do, who know better than I do."

do I really? what exactly is going to happen if I prefer not to? are the snooker police going to come round, smash my front door down at 6am in the morning and arrest me for GBH (grievous billiards harm) to snooker balls? no, of course they are not ... so perhaps you could choose your words more wisely

oh bugger, I was trying to avoid doing emoticons

your turn, vmax ...

Nothing will happen DandyA, and that's my point exactly. You are trying to be a better player but cue ball sighting won't make you one. I know what a players 31 high break at snooker is all about. It's not like they make a 30 break every time they go to the table yet just can't get past that 31, it means that they go to the table and miss, or pot a red and a colour and miss, or pot a red, a colour and then another red and miss and once in a blue moon will string a twenty together and once in 10 years make a 31.
I would guess that all the questions that you ask on these coaching threads you wish to be answered to make you a better player and yet you have the front to argue with people who make hundred breaks and professional coaches that what you are doing is correct and the advice they are giving you is wrong.

Do you want to get better or not ??

[pottr]

A little abrupt from vmax but I couldn't agree more.

[DandyA]

you [DandyA] have the front to argue with people who make hundred breaks and professional coaches that what you are doing is correct and the advice they are giving you is wrong.

can we just get one thing straight vmax ...

I have never said that object ball sighting is wrong and that cue ball sighting is correct ... for instance, in post 14 at the start of this thread, I said ...

object ball sighters will tell you (I think) that their brain subconsciously adjusts for the difference ... that's fair enough, I wouldn't argue, I used to be one ... and I'm not suggesting it's wrong or they should change ...

I very much welcome the opportunities this forum provides, to discuss issues with coaches, good players, less good players or just fans of the sport ...

I single out Terry Davidson for praise, I have learned a lot from his postings - most notably his advice regarding the "stand-up" part of a shot but many other things too, I very much respect his advice and opinions ... I also really enjoy nrage's postings from a more "physics" slant ... and I also enjoy everyone else's postings including yours except when they get personal ...

I do not wish to argue with anyone, I am trying to discuss various topics, to share opinions, which is enjoyable in itself and will hopefully lead to me having a better understanding of this beautiful game ...

however, it's not in my nature to learn by rote or to do things simply because I am told to ... I want to understand why it is better to do it that way and what issues are involved ... I don't see anything wrong with that ...

[DandyA]

I know what a players 31 high break at snooker is all about. It's not like they make a 30 break every time they go to the table yet just can't get past that 31, it means that they go to the table and miss, or pot a red and a colour and miss, or pot a red, a colour and then another red and miss and once in a blue moon will string a twenty together and once in 10 years make a 31.

I'll assume these comments are about a general player with a 31 break rather than me personally (although I think many would infer otherwise) ... I'll treat it as that for the simple reason you cannot possibly know how I play - you've never seen me play, you simply don't know what my cue action is like, my shot selection, my positional ability ...

firstly, I don't believe there's any shame in "they go to the table and miss" - by which I suppose you mean fail to make a pot as their turn starts - pros and amateurs at all levels do this all the time ... I have yet to see a player who can make any pot from anywhere on the table, I certainly can't and I doubt you can too ...

"or pot a red and a colour and miss, or pot a red, a colour and then another red and miss" ... interesting this, it never ceases to amaze me how good pros positional skills are ... generally although by no means always, once they've got the opening red, they are going to make some more points, although I've also seen on countless occasions pros make a complete "horlicks" of it and do exactly as you are criticising 31 HB players for ... but I totally accept a pro (or better amateur than I) will generally make more points per successful opening pot ...

"and once in a blue moon will string a twenty together" ... well according to wikipedia, a blue moon occurs once every two or three years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_moon

I can't speak for other 31 HB players but I would expect to get into the twenties an awful lot more than that ... all I can describe is my own experience, playing one evening a week, I will definitely do a number of 4 or 5 ball breaks getting into the teens measured in points ... and I'll be disappointed if I didn't get into the twenties each week, it does happen occasionally but generally I'd expect to get at least one twenty-something and quite possibly two or three per evening ...

not trying to blow my own trumpet but I've also made two 30 breaks this year as well as my 31 ... I know all the 100 break players are giggling to themselves but I am proud of them ... I've also done an 8 ball break for 12 points (4 red/yellows) ... oh, and the one I'm actually proudest of was all pinks - with reds all over the place, I got in and around the pink on it's spot and played a lovely series of little stuns, screws, rolls and cannons - shame I blew it on 28 ...

"and once in 10 years make a 31" ... ha, great, that gives me a lot of encouragement ... it sounds like you know someone else who has such a poor break as me ... vmax, could you put me in touch with him/her, I'd like to challenge them to a game ... oh, bummer, I've just realised you're probably referring to me ...

[pottr]

If you want to improve, you could do with not playing 4 handed snooker.

It's no good for you as you never recieve the benefit of playing a good safety.

[DandyA]

If you want to improve, you could do with not playing 4 handed snooker.

It's no good for you as you never recieve the benefit of playing a good safety.

very true pottr ... but I'm playing snooker socially with friends and that's all, there's actually no-one else to play at Riley's Staines ... I have no ambitions to play for a snooker team, turn professional or whatever, I'm 55yrs of age! I play snooker once a week because I enjoy it, I would like to beat my high break but I'm not that worried, if I was worried I'd do solo stuff - line-up, blacks or pinks off their spots ... but I don't, I find them deathly boring personally (and frustrating!) ...

I'm sure when I finally shed my mortal coil and take the long and lonely road to hell, Satan will let me in ... heck, he'll probably ask what my high break is ... I'll reply 31 ... he'll say "do you want to play for money" and I'll whoop his ar5e thanks to good advice from you, Terry, nrage and vmax ...

[pottr]

Can't say fairer than that my good man.