Just wondering why...? but seriously

[Sidd]

Hi all,

Nice to see snooker forum back up and running after some time. Felt pretty lonely during the days it was down I can breathe again now LOL

I saw Nic Barrow's video on the grip where he teaches the grip formation. Sounded easy to me and the only difference with his grip and mine was that i would normally let the thumb hang down, so i gave it a try and locked/curled my thumb (lower part) against the outer part of the forefinger... Secondly I was playing with a brand new tip but then when I played I rocked and played really well throughout the day so I was sure the new grip formation and tip are doing wonders for me.

came back satisfied and went in to play the next day and there I was missing and loosing and missing and missing. Not evven two colours in a row... This shattered my confidence and I was even afraid to take on an easy colour... The sound of my cue and CB impact felt negative and not positive striking I knew it but couldnt know how to change that ... This continued till last evening like for four days and i was amazed and could not figure out what has gone wrong. Only seemed to have got a little back during the last frame yesterday when I suddenly started playing well ... tonight will tell if that remains or not.

Went to the practice table for a few shots and tried long straight blues and couldnt pot even a single one... this is serious now... i got to know i wasnt cueing straight but what was going wrong...no idea.

Any ideas what was happening there...???

[pottr]

But seriously... maybe like the rest of us, you're just not as good as you think you are?

Take the rough with the smooth Sidd.

[alabadi]

not sure if this is the case Sidd, however you mentioned that you changed your grip, instead of leaving your thumb hanging down you wrap it around now.

Although you say you played better the first time you tried it, it might be a case when something new is introduced you get that instant success and then everything falls apart. i have found the same, when i make a change i get instant success then it suddenly gets worse, sometimes the placebo effect of the change is something to do with it, we all want the change to make it better and therefore we think more positive and we find that success, however when it starts going wrong we start analysing it and thinking too much and it gets worse and worse.

I think any change needs time to become a natural part of our set up, so i would either give it time to take effect, or on the other hand you can revert back to your old way of doing things and see if you get better success.

i am no expert here however it might be that now you wrap your thumb around the cue you might be inclined to tighten your grip before inpact which will cause some movement. i would recommend you take some videos of yourself with both grips from behind and the side then, either watch them back yourself to see if your grip is tightening or doing something different or post them on here for the coaches to give their opinions.

i use some free sport analysis software myself called Kinovea which allows you to slow the video down frame by frame its great to use and self diagnose technique issues. to solve them though thats a different matter you would need to consult with a coach.

hope this helps

Alabbadi

[vmax4steve]

There are times when you try something new and it seemingly works straight away and you have a EUREKA moment thinking that you have found that missing something when in fact what you are really doing is putting all the fundamentals together, same as you have done before when playing really well without this new technique.
Next day the new technique doesn't work at all because for some reason one or more of the fundamentals are not in place, yet you are using this new technique which you believed to be the secret you were looking for when in fact it wasn't.

Fact is Sidd that all the fundamentals have to come together all at once for you to play well, missing just one will make you play badly. If you are a player that plays really well at times but not at others then you have to realise that you don't need a new technique you need to find a way to get the fundamentals together more often.

[Sidd]

Thanks a lot for the best of replies guys.. You all encouraged me to the core.

Pottr: I am not even close to good but yes I must take the rough with the smooth- well put.

Alabadi: I think you have a point that i also had in mind; the new grip might be helping in tightening of the grip before impact- will take note and check it out.

[sberry]

If you look at the techniques of various players today and past you'll know different techniques along the same lines work for different people. One thing makes improvement is practice provided you don't beat yourself up after every miss and try to change something every frame because you think you must be doing something wrong if you missed a few.

If you are making regular half century breaks and can kill a frame in one visit you can call yourself a good player, if you make 30 and 40 breaks every now and then, maybe at least one every session, you are a club player, anything less then you are a beginner and the last two you have to accept your cue action will not be totally right or consistent, your sighting and aim might be off a bit and your shot selection and potting ability and confidence will be lacking.

Much more table time, more structured practice and less analysis is what's needed in my opinion, not everyone can play past a certain level but everyone can still enjoy it.

[Sidd]

There are times when you try something new and it seemingly works straight away and you have a EUREKA moment thinking that you have found that missing something when in fact what you are really doing is putting all the fundamentals together, same as you have done before when playing really well without this new technique.
Next day the new technique doesn't work at all because for some reason one or more of the fundamentals are not in place, yet you are using this new technique which you believed to be the secret you were looking for when in fact it wasn't.

Fact is Sidd that all the fundamentals have to come together all at once for you to play well, missing just one will make you play badly. If you are a player that plays really well at times but not at others then you have to realise that you don't need a new technique you need to find a way to get the fundamentals together more often.

My Oh My: excellent post sir. Thanks a million. It really seems to be the case with me. It must surely be the case. In the first paragraph what you have mentioned seems to be exactly what is going on. Coupled with what Alabadi mentioned (tightening of the grip) and then I totally agree- this is exactly what happens to me normally I learn something new, try it, it works I feel like i have completed a challenge and got the secret ingredient and then the next day it falls to pieces and I grind myself and keep wondering why it isnt happening... !

in the second para what you have mentioned gives me absolute confidence- yes I highest break is 67 and I have made a few 50 pluses as well... but I do not seem to be able to keep it there and build upon it to progress to 80 and centuries etc. You know your post reminded me of why i came to this forum and my very first post and it was about consistency: i would play like a real good solid player for a few days and then become as bad as an arse for the next couple of weeks or even more and then again it keeps repeating like that over and over again and in the middle of it all i have the same playing standard without much progress... I feel once i am consistent at a particular level only then can I progress to another level but keeping myself consistent even at a 40 break standard seems a hard nut to crack... But your words are taken note of my dear and I shall try not to indulge anymore in technique and experimenting but concentrating on the game and getting the fundamentals right and try to repeat that often and improve.

Last but not the least; in commenting on your last two lines yes indeed i am a player who plays good at times but really bad at others hence technique question is removed and its about getting all fundamentals correct- agreed- but any ideas on how to achieve that with some consistency ? would you say practice practice practice or something else ???

[Sidd]

If you look at the techniques of various players today and past you'll know different techniques along the same lines work for different people. One thing makes improvement is practice provided you don't beat yourself up after every miss and try to change something every frame because you think you must be doing something wrong if you missed a few.

If you are making regular half century breaks and can kill a frame in one visit you can call yourself a good player, if you make 30 and 40 breaks every now and then, maybe at least one every session, you are a club player, anything less then you are a beginner and the last two you have to accept your cue action will not be totally right or consistent, your sighting and aim might be off a bit and your shot selection and potting ability and confidence will be lacking.

Much more table time, more structured practice and less analysis is what's needed in my opinion, not everyone can play past a certain level but everyone can still enjoy it.

Thanks... Well said... noted! I think im a club player who finds it hard to remain a club player but I will practice and try to gain improvement ... deep down i know i can do it !!! but you are right, i do that all the time after every miss i would beat myself and change things ... but not anymore hopefully... thanks again

[throtts]

@ Sidd,

Are you tired before you start playing, lifestyle comes in to play too. If your tired, concentration will lapse.

Also, ( and found out myself recently, again ) are you SURE your not moving on the shot. The shear anticipation of trying to make a change work might be making you suddenly, may it being subtle, flinching on the shot. I was poor with blacks off the spot a week or two back and could not work it out. I then recomposed and made sure I had absolutely no head or upper body movement. Surprise surprise, the blacks were plopping in again.

Because we hear the " keep still on the shot" scenario so often I believe we just take it for granted that we are keeping still, but sometimes we are not. Its also so hard to spot yourself doing it, more often than not someone else will spot a player doing it but the player doing it will not have a clue they are doing it.

Just a thought, buddy and do not try too hard. Snooker for enjoying as well, as you know anyway.

[sberry]

And moving sideways from throtts first line, though all practice is good, it isn't if something about the conditions bothers you, be it noise, the table, whatever. True we have to play in all conditions but no point chucking good money away if you're bothered by something - I had a shocking session the other day but told myself I would beforehand as I arrived too late to get the match table so was stuck on a rubbish one.

Practice, practice, practice as you said, if you can find different and better partners even better, structured practice, line ups, etc and above all don't expect the earth or smash yourself up when it doesn't go right.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

As a Nic Barrow advocate I feel I must comment in order to get you straightened out. In the grip area I don't agree with Nic on curling the thumb around to the forefinger at all as I feel this encourages the player to tighten the thumb and use it to help grip the cue more solidly. HOWEVER, Nic did NOT say to 'tighten the thumb on the cue and the end of the forefinger' as he says to have the thumb 'MAKING CONTACT' with the forefinger. As I have had some bad experiences myself with tightening the thumb around the cue and against the forefinger I now recommend to students to have the thumb pointed straight down to the floor in order to prevent the thumb from playing a major part in the final delivery.

IN ADDITION...remember the primary grip on the cue should be the very top of the thumb and forefinger. I've found the best grip for me is with the cue butt resting between the two joints in the thumb in that little hollow between then and also virtually the very top of the forefinger with the thumb pointed straight down. This grip will allow the back 3 fingers to release nicely and will help to delay those back 3 fingers from coming onto the cue until after the strike.

One additional comment on the 3 most common causes of inconsistency. They are:
1. Small upper body movement during either the backswing or delivery. AS HAS BEEN SAID ABOVE 'a lot of players THINK they stay still and when I show them using Kinovea and frame-by-frame analysis they can easily see the head rising up and to the left (for a right-handed player) and for you up and to the left a bit which WILL move the tip on the cueball too by 1mm or so but enough to miss a pot, especially with power.
2. Timing is off. Use a front pause, a slow backswing, a rear pause if you naturally have one and then start the delivery slow and without increasing the pressure of the grip on the cue.
3. Drive through the cueball by imagining you will be striking the object ball with your tip.

If you do these 3 things every time you play the inconsistency should be minimized and I mean greatly minimized.

Terry

[pottr]

There are times when you try something new and it seemingly works straight away and you have a EUREKA moment thinking that you have found that missing something when in fact what you are really doing is putting all the fundamentals together, same as you have done before when playing really well without this new technique.
Next day the new technique doesn't work at all because for some reason one or more of the fundamentals are not in place, yet you are using this new technique which you believed to be the secret you were looking for when in fact it wasn't.

This quote from vmax is what I consider to be the answer to 99% of the coaching advice threads on this forum. It should be pinned to the top of the coaching section.

Throtts and Sberry also pick up on excellent points. That's what makes sport so amazing. Conditions and mood generally tend to play as big a part as your current form and ability.

Sidd, you obviously care a lot about your snooker so keep plodding away. But read the vmax quote I highlighted. Stop and then read it again. This is where your attention should be with regard to your future improvement. Don't highlight the subtle nuances of your technique because I fear it is doing you more harm than good.

Fundamentals which don't need too much thought:

Stand behind the shot,
visualise the shot
walk into the shot,
drop the bridge, cue and head straight down on to the shot,
keep still, don't move your head,
have a definied end to your stroke (to the chest if you like?)

That really is the basics and it's still a lot to take in and get correct everytime. Even the best players in the world are guilty of errors on these points on occasion.

Keep playing my friend. Remember, it's fun.

[vmax4steve]

Fundamentals which don't need too much thought:

Stand behind the shot,
visualise the shot
walk into the shot,
drop the bridge, cue and head straight down on to the shot,
keep still, don't move your head,
have a definied end to your stroke (to the chest if you like?)

I would add to these

Focus on the point of contact on the object ball when standing behind & visualising the shot
Focus on the point of contact on the object ball at the exact moment of the stroke

[throtts]

I would add to these

Focus on the point of contact on the object ball when standing behind & visualising the shot
Focus on the point of contact on the object ball at the exact moment of the stroke

I agree with you and pottr.

And as the boss states ( Terry ), timing is so important..

I love your love for snooker, Sidd. Go for it, buddy.

[pottr]

They were in there mate but I deleted them. Didn't want to revisit that grave of a thread