where and when to look

[itsnoteasy]

Well i have two things to say and that will be that for me on this subject, first my pre shot routine from now on shall be(after all this debate)my original one lol, it will be as follows , left foot on line of aim, cue on line of aim(a la Nic Barrow) drop down chest to cue(Dell Hill style) eyes locked on to point of contact of object ball, check all is well on front pause, full concentration on bob on rear pause, straight smooth follow through staying as still as i can ,hand ending in same place at the end of stroke all the time, and track ob with eyes NOT HEAD you hear me NOT HEAD lol.
The second point i may be way off with but i feel its worth asking again and its this
When i was on the forum a while back i asked what the difference between aiming and sighting was as i couldnt understand it and was told they where the same thing, well to me i have decided they are completely different, to me aiming is done with the cue and sighting is done with the eyes,another way of putting it is the line of AIM is with the cue and centre of cue ball, the line of sight is with the eyes and contact point on object ball and the only point these two align is on an exact straight shot this is the one and only time you are sighting down the cue,(like a rifle) on all other shots you are aiming one way sighting another , so my question is(at last)are aiming and sighting two ,although connected,separate things?.

[Sidd]

Sidd

The player concerned has a high break of 61 but over the years his inability to play screw and stun shots well got worse and reached the point where he couldn't play them at all. His anxiety was so great that he tensed up and played screw and stun shots from the address position with no backswing using his shoulder for power and couldn't even pot them over the pockets.
I simply showed him how to play these shots with his normal cue action as they didn't require any special technique just his usual silky smooth cue action, and eyes on contact point of the object ball is crucial in doing this.
He will be working on what I told him for the next few weeks on his own before coming back for another lesson if he feels he requires it.

As for DandyA, I and others have tried but it's like I'm Richard Dawkins debating theology with a member of the Taliban. Can't get through that ingrained belief that keeps him in thrall through ignorance.

Exactly.. And it provides the answer to the question of this thread.. Where to look.. if you find yourself looking at the CB and feeling good this means you are not confident enough of your technique and have to reply on seeing it happen for you hence CB sighting.. Once you become fully aware of and confident in your technique you switch to OB sighting hence more concentration and bigger breaks...

The guy who cant screw has a problem with screw and therefore looks at CB while screwing to ensure he is hitting correct etc hence once you give him the confidence to play the screws again swiftly he will auto switch to OB sighting I am sure of it. You cant make 61 without being able to screw smoothly and he will get back to his normal playing ability in this area and then its OB sighting in the end of it all.

[Terry Davidson]

itsnoteasy:

The correct explanation for the difference between aiming and sighting is:

AIMING - when standing up behind the shot and selecting your line of aim via BOB (or whatever).

SIGHTING - when you are down in the address position and sighting along the cue and checking that everything is as you want it, exactly the same as sighting a rifle or arrow. The cue should remain still as this as done as at the front pause or the preliminary pause before feathering, but I recommend the front pause.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

nrage

Nice try but it doesn't wash I'm afraid.
You don't twist my words, you twist my meaning because you see attacks on yourself all the bloody time.
The metaphors I use are all valid, they may be extreme but they are valid and comparing DandyA, and others I may add, as a member of the Taliban debating theology with Richard Dawkins is perfectly good as even a member of the Taliban could be made to understand in time. But the nature and progress of that time would be glacial and very, very frustrating for Dawkins, who could actually show fossil and geological evidence for his argument, whereas all I have to go on is words on a forum.

All humour is at the expense of others. It's humour aimed at you that you find unamusing. You've said before that you have a sense of humour yet we have had no evidence of that at all.


My last words to you on this is shut up and put all your theory to the test and make yourself a better player. Only then will I listen to you.

[nrage]

You don't twist my words, you twist my meaning because you see attacks on yourself all the bloody time.

Odd that I only see them coming from you tho right?

The metaphors I use are all valid, they may be extreme but ..

Let me stop you there. First it's an analogy, and now it's a metaphor? If they're extreme then they're not very accurate and therefore not a very good analogy, right?

All humour is at the expense of others.

This is demonstrably false:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_styles

It's humour aimed at you that you find unamusing.

This too, is false. I found what you said directed at me unamusing for the reason I gave in my last post:
"Now, if you were a close friend of mine and had said exactly the same thing I'd have probably found it amusing"

I didn't and still don't really know you personally so it's not clear when you're trying to be funny and otherwise just being a jerk.

You've said before that you have a sense of humour yet we have had no evidence of that at all.

Really?
http://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/boa...edom-of-speech

I know I don't tend to post funny things for the sake of it here (vs facebook for example), but I thought that one would have made you chuckle just a little.

Besides which, lack of evidence is not evidence of the opposite/inverse.

My last words to you on this is shut up and put all your theory to the test and make yourself a better player. Only then will I listen to you.

I'd love to but I simply don't have the time to practice. I've played all of once in the last 7 months, and that for 2 hours tops. *sigh*

You seem to be miss-understanding my motivations here. I don't really care whether you listen to me. As I've said repeatedly you're entitled to ignore me, based on my high break or really any other reason you chose to use. I think it's a bad idea to do that, as I've said, but hey each to their own.

What I take issue with is your assertion that everyone should do the same or that people like me should not post on threads like this.

[itsnoteasy]

Thanks Terry. i really appreciate the time you (and others) take to answer what must be imbecilic questions for you.
Went for a practice today hit a 60 odd on the line up on my first few attempts,(i only play with reds, black and pink on table) then cleared the colours twice round for the first time ever, it went a bit erratic near the end but my back was sore(hard shift at work) and i was more thinking about that than the snooker i think, so i packed in.

[DandyA]

Vmax: what you mentioned in your long post above has a great learning point for those who wish to learn really. I did even though I am not interested in this debate really woven well by DandyA

good excellent, surely that's the point of a discussion, we all learn from it I don't understand what you mean by "woven well" Sidd, probably a predictive typo or something but of no great importance ...

That guy cant screw well but can follow really good. What you found out is interesting worth noting and learning from. I shall try to explain in different words in order to draw the same conclusion; maybe people can pick from that perspective.

I think by "that guy" you are referring to the chap vmax4steve was coaching in his earlier posting ... and not me ... just thought that was clarifying ...

N.B. I posted it merely for DandyA to think of this issue from another perspective and have no malafied intentions whatsoever. Nothing contained in the above paragraphs are to be seen maliciously I have high respect for all the users including DandyA

no malified intentions taken Sidd ... quite the reverse ... thank you for your posting, I enjoyed reading it and welcome you taking the time to give your opinion as a much better player than I ...

[DandyA]

You seem to be miss-understanding my motivations here. I don't really care whether you listen to me. As I've said repeatedly you're entitled to ignore me, based on my high break or really any other reason you chose to use. I think it's a bad idea to do that, as I've said, but hey each to their own.

What I take issue with is your assertion that everyone should do the same or that people like me should not post on threads like this.

good point nrage ...

also just checking that you haven't forgotten about the Surrey Taliban meeting tomorrow night - we have Richard Dawkins as the guest speaker so don't forget to bring your AK-47 with you I would shoot him myself but I'd probably miss

[edit] ... just thought I'd better mention that was a little attempt at humour, nrage is not a fully paid-up member of the Taliban, well not yet at least since he still believes in OB sighting LOL

[Sidd]

DandyA: thanks for being a sport. By woven-well I meant that you are the architect of this thread, aren't you in a way There can be CB sighters and there would be OB sighters... but What goes on between the lines has nothing to do with sighting on this thread eh Anyway, and yes 'that guy' meant the guy Vmax was training. And no I do not consider myself a better player just because I can build a break higher than yours; you might be better than me in terms of safety or escaping snookers who knows As for break building ... the sun shall shine for you one day soon enough dude; carry on but even just for experiment do the OB sighting for a week and you will see the difference.. we all know the top three traits snooker demands of us all are A. Discipline B. Patience and C. Calmness --- give the OB sighting a decent go for a week and then lets see...

Nrage and DandyA: I could have concluded that this issue is just like seeing 9 written on a table from your end but across the table Vmax would argue that it is 6- and then there is no conclusion unless you guys agree that there are always point of views and perspectives to things that are different for different people but in reality are the same thing... But I cant given that I am convinced in my mind, through my weak practice and little experience in snooker, that OB sighting is the only way. It could have been a case of what works best for you but this, my dear mates, is not a question of perspectives for OB sighting in snooker is a matter of straight forward principle; so yes you will have to agree Vmax is right here.

Humorous (on a lighter note): What I got from dandyA's joke- if CB sighters are hardliners or Taliban then it cannot be true.. Taliban also look at their target through their AK-47s while shooting and not the end of the barrel or the spot from where the bullet is to emerge; had that been the case they might have been finished and killed by now and secondly if CB sighters are Taliban then these guys are in abundance in my country (disputed border lands) and hence we should have had more CB sighters than OB sighters, which isn't the case so it isn't true... Ha-ha!

[DandyA]

DandyA: thanks for being a sport. By woven-well I meant that you are the architect of this thread, aren't you in a way There can be CB sighters and there would be OB sighters... but What goes on between the lines has nothing to do with sighting on this thread eh Anyway, and yes 'that guy' meant the guy Vmax was training. And no I do not consider myself a better player just because I can build a break higher than yours; you might be better than me in terms of safety or escaping snookers who knows As for break building ... the sun shall shine for you one day soon enough dude; carry on but even just for experiment do the OB sighting for a week and you will see the difference.. we all know the top three traits snooker demands of us all are A. Discipline B. Patience and C. Calmness --- give the OB sighting a decent go for a week and then lets see...

Nrage and DandyA: I could have concluded that this issue is just like seeing 9 written on a table from your end but across the table Vmax would argue that it is 6- and then there is no conclusion unless you guys agree that there are always point of views and perspectives to things that are different for different people but in reality are the same thing... But I cant given that I am convinced in my mind, through my weak practice and little experience in snooker, that OB sighting is the only way. It could have been a case of what works best for you but this, my dear mates, is not a question of perspectives for OB sighting in snooker is a matter of straight forward principle; so yes you will have to agree Vmax is right here.

Humorous (on a lighter note): What I got from dandyA's joke- if CB sighters are hardliners or Taliban then it cannot be true.. Taliban also look at their target through their AK-47s while shooting and not the end of the barrel or the spot from where the bullet is to emerge; had that been the case they might have been finished and killed by now and secondly if CB sighters are Taliban then these guys are in abundance in my country (disputed border lands) and hence we should have had more CB sighters than OB sighters, which isn't the case so it isn't true... Ha-ha!

another good posting from you Sidd, I do enjoy your contributions to the forum

just to clarify about the bit I've highlighted in bold ... I used OB sighting for 9 years, it's only within the last few months I decided to try CB sighting and I am enjoying the benefits of it ... I am *not* saying it is the best solution and never have, nor am I particularly recommending other players switch to it (that is their choice) nor am I saying players who OB sight are wrong ... all I was trying to do was discuss the merits of the two different methods ...

oh and thank you for your comment "the sun will shine on you one day" ... very kind of you ... I was born in 1957, the same year as Steve Davis so a good year for snooker players ... I'm 6 months older than him so I'm leaving it a bit late to make a significant mark on the snooker world but I can still enjoy the game at my level and you never know LOL ...

I also appreciate the humorous banter about the Taliban, it's nice to see a sense of humour on the forum and I can't disagree with your logic

[DandyA]

nrage My last words to you on this is shut up and put all your theory to the test and make yourself a better player. Only then will I listen to you.

that's your prerogative vmax4steve ... no-one is disputing that ... however some might say you bully other members and troll the forum ... I guess others would say you don't ...

[Sidd]

Mr DandyA: I could never have imagined that you are a senior member of the community. I thought you would be of my age or even younger. Now that I know that you have given a lot of time to OB sighting it puts a new perspective on the picture for me. I also do apologize if I have said something unintentionally that may have offended you. My values and brought up strictly prohibits me from passing any impolite comments to elders and seniors related or unrelated, known or unknown; be it unintentional.

Well what can I say; you have lots of experience in the game and can hence carry on with CB sighting but it may not bring results given that I am convinced ob sighting is the only way to progress. Besides, one of the most important drawback of CB sighting that Terry mentions is that for CB sighters they might subconsciously think that at hitting the CB job is finished and might decelerate pass through the CB and its worth pondering over. Secondly, I personally think with CB sighting the weight of the CB becomes more notable and may ask you to tighten the grip of as Terry puts it decelerate; given that while seeing OB you dont worry about CB and complete the shot (grip hand to the chest) whereas with CB sighting CB would seem visible hard ball and you might unintentionally decelerate due to the friction caused by hitting CB....

Taliban are now after snooker clubs too; as it seems here in Pakistan. They put a bomb in Quetta city in a snooker club in the basement of a building that housed Shia sect Muslims (their target) and due to the explosion the building collapsed taking lives of about 100 people... I am saddened by just imagining those poor lads playing and only enjoying their snooker last night and then suddenly... end of life for the poor souls.

[vmax4steve]

just to clarify about the bit I've highlighted in bold ... I used OB sighting for 9 years, it's only within the last few months I decided to try CB sighting and I am enjoying the benefits of it ... I am *not* saying it is the best solution and never have, nor am I particularly recommending other players switch to it (that is their choice) nor am I saying players who OB sight are wrong ... all I was trying to do was discuss the merits of the two different methods ...

And all I ever said was that cue ball sighting doesn't work and I'm right about that. All I ever said was that those for whom object ball sighting doesn't work is because they don't do it even though they think they do. I myself don't do it all the time, I take my eye off the pot on a regular basis, and this is the reason for my inconsistancy.
All I ever said was that your high break of 31 with cue ball sighting improved from 27 (I think) was the equivalent of just one ball and was not evidence of any improvement.
All I ever said was that those who have high breaks in the 20's or 30's should listen to those who are not only bona fide coaches but are better players.

I post in bold and in CAPITALS for emphasis not because I'm shouting.

Everything else about snooker is up for debate, but not this subject. For this subject there is only one way and giving you respect for your alternative view and leaving it there isn't going to help you.

The last thing that I am is a bully but as far as nrage is concerned all I see in him is someone seeking kudos for paraphrasing others to fill the void left inside him by his lowly talent at this great game of ours. Nobody else on this forum who is such a poor player has the gall to go into the immense detail he does on every aspect of the game as he does. All the others are here to learn and ask questions, but he is the only poor player on this forum who has all the answers, and none of them are his, all his answers come from somewhere else.
I could easily do the same thing on a speedway forum, trawl the internet and find the theory behind rear wheel steering, pass it on to others and set myself up as an internet expert, but as a biker who is a speedway fan but has never ridden speedway my thoughts would be to leave that to those that can and learn from them myself, if I could.

All I ask is that he does the same, but instead he argues with me and that leaves him open to the occasional p*ss take as far as I'm concerned.

[hotpot]

I think more pots are missed by people putting unintentional side on the white or not being able to read the throw accurately enough when side is used than taking their eyes off the contact point on the object ball . Hitting the white dead centre for me and other good players i,ve spoken to is one of the hardest things to do consistently in snooker .

[nrage]

And all I ever said was that cue ball sighting doesn't work and I'm right about that. All I ever said was that those for whom object ball sighting doesn't work is because they don't do it even though they think they do.

Everything else about snooker is up for debate, but not this subject. For this subject there is only one way and giving you respect for your alternative view and leaving it there isn't going to help you.

You're very certain about this, are you really 100% certain? Do you deny the possibility that you might be wrong? .. who was making an analogy about religious belief earlier?

All I ever said was that those who have high breaks in the 20's or 30's should listen to those who are not only bona fide coaches but are better players.

All we said in return was that if you want to do this, go ahead, but people can make up their own minds. It's an open forum so everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone has the option to take it, or leave it as they see fit.

I post in bold and in CAPITALS for emphasis not because I'm shouting.

.. except you emphasised the entire post. Capitals is commonly accepted/seen as shouting, so you risk confusing or offending people if you ignore that fact.

The last thing that I am is a bully but as far as nrage is concerned all I see in him is someone seeking kudos for paraphrasing others to fill the void left inside him by his lowly talent at this great game of ours. Nobody else on this forum who is such a poor player has the gall to go into the immense detail he does on every aspect of the game as he does. All the others are here to learn and ask questions, but he is the only poor player on this forum who has all the answers, and none of them are his, all his answers come from somewhere else.
I could easily do the same thing on a speedway forum, trawl the internet and find the theory behind rear wheel steering, pass it on to others and set myself up as an internet expert, but as a biker who is a speedway fan but has never ridden speedway my thoughts would be to leave that to those that can and learn from them myself, if I could.

If it were true that I was simply paraphrasing someone else's words it would be pretty clear fairly soon that I didn't know what I was talking about. As it is, you've yet to actually disagree with any of the advice I give to people WRT snooker itself (or you've disagreed with so little I can't recall the last time), we mostly disagree about side issues, like..

It's clear to me that the biggest disagreement here is your belief that someone can only share something they have learned by personal experience and I think you're wrong. I think if you sat down and tried to write down everything you "know" you'll find the majority doesn't come from your own personal experience, but has been passed on to you by parents, friends, books, media, etc and it's all useful, helpful, and worth listening to. Of course you want to be skeptical about information and test it yourself, but don't be so immediately cynical about it.

If you did decide to learn the physics of real wheel steering, read top drivers descriptions of it and how they use it to best effect and so on, then someone asked you a question about it you would, via the information you had learned, be able to usefully help them. I can't see anything wrong with that, nor would I assume you were only doing it to feel better about yourself (that would be cynical). In fact, by learning it you have in bettered yourself and made yourself a more useful member of that community. Win-win as far as I can see.

That's all I'm doing here, sharing the information I have gathered about snooker, and helping people in the process.

All I ask is that he does the same, but instead he argues with me and that leaves him open to the occasional p*ss take as far as I'm concerned.

If you had just "asked" me to do the same I would have told you that I believe all information can usefully be shared (as I have above) and we'd have agreed to disagree and gone our separate ways. Clearly that is not what happened.

All I ask is that you stop being so concerned with who is posting and instead concentrate on what they're saying, if you disagree with what they're saying you argue with that. It's the personal attacks and slander which may cause people to label you "bully" and cloud your argument, or make it weaker by association.