New ideas... to try or not to try

[Sidd]

Sidd:

Bridge arm should be nearly straight and not have a big bend in it as that will put the eyes too close to the cueball and give you a cramped set-up.

Preferred eye, dominant eye? I'm not a bit advocate since I believe no matter what you do if you do it consistently and also stay down on the shot and watch the object ball in order to give the brain the feedback it needs then it should be fine. If you believe the line of aim you selected when standing up is correct but find when you get down and sight along the cue that you are making micro-adjustments (I mean on EVERY shot, not on the occasional shot as we all do it) then try the alignment test or else see if you can get your hands on a SightRight device as I use that here at my facility to check my students.

If you decide to bring the cue more under the left eye then do it by either turning the head slightly or else tilting the head slightly since if you move the chin on the cue that will make basic changes to your set-up and you will have to start all over again to start delivering the cue straight. My recommendation would be to leave things as they are but keep it consistent and you will find you will pot fine (as far as the sighting goes).

What does concern me is your severely bent bridge arm. It means you will have a cramped set-up and your head will be too close to the cueball. There should be either a straight bridge arm (as Joe Davis advocated) or else a very slight bend, maybe 10degrees or so (as Frank Callan advocated).

Sidd...the absolute best thing you could do is to take a video of yourself from front, side and rear showing elbow down to the grip hand in all shots and then post it up on youtube and then post the link on here. This way we can all take a look and make recommendations.

Personally, I think you should settle down to one set-up and technique and then STICK WITH IT. You will NOT improve if you keep changing things all the time as you are not giving your brain a chance to get used to anything. There are pro players with completely awful set-up and technique but they do it consistently and are able to reach the pro skill level. Try it and see what happens

Terry

Terry thanks again for the great in depth response. I am glad to have you around Coach. I know I sometimes write foolish things but my love for the game and passion to be able to play consistent overwhelms my sanity at times

- Well coach I never make adjustments on shot after getting down (occasional ones we all do) and I shall tell you another thing here that all the good breaks i have made like 67, 56, 54 I never had to rethink a shot... I play slow and consciously once i am down in potting but I clearly remember that while doing my above mentioned breaks I was potting like an animal non-stop and my play rate or shot rate at that timeframe would have been 5 secs max... This tell me, in the light of what you said, that my eye allignment question should be removed... Isn't that what you meant? From this point onward I shall never think of the prefered eye. If I can take a red on the side cushion with rest and pot it with running side/screw and take immaculate position- I think master eye thing is not for me to think about right!

- I noticed yesterday that my bridge arm isnt that bent but a little more than usual- i thought it was due to my height but I have corrected it and have felt that I now have more cue above my eye than before. I will now stick to this.

Last but not the least; I have finally decided to take a video recording as you have asking me all along. I shall very soon upload that here and wait for final comments from all of you. It will save me the hassle of experimenting haha well i have been doing that till now I guess.. So video coming soon!!!

Thanks again coach

[Sidd]

The thing is Gav that Sidd has a high break of 67. If you can make one 67 then you are capable of stringing two together and getting the ton+. Sidd seems to change things every week without a coach ever having a look at him and IMO he doesn't know what, if anything, he does wrong, he's simply guessing that if Nic Barrow says do it this way and he himself doesn't do it that way then he must be wrong and Nic Barrow is always right, which he isn't.
If he gives himself time to get the fundamentals of his own game together more consistantly he can then have an idea of what shots he is having trouble with when falling down on the big break attempts. Until he does this he will always be changing and starting from scratch and having something in his head other than relaxing and playing the game.

The players who should take more notice of Nic Barrow are those who have been playing for years and struggle to make a twenty break, they are the ones with really poor technique who need to maybe start from scratch and learn a new technique by rote.
Players with a 50+ to their names have proved to themselves they can play a bit but are simply erratic and fail to do the basics through lack of concentration or when under pressure. Players like this do themselves no good at all by constantly blaming their own technique and changing grips, stance, feathers, sighting etc every other week.

Yes I gather you are absolutely correct. I can say this in this connection:

My affair with the game started when I used to watch snooker matches videos with my uncle on tapes his friend used to send him from UK (those of Steve and Alex and others of those times). Internet had not been invented then coaching or even fame for snooker here in our country. My first high break was 42. When I did that I was not referring to any coaching tips advice etc this is long ago maybe in 1997 or 1998. When i did that I considered myself a good player and thought I could improve and started taking the game seriously. After that was my journey based on trial and error and during that process I watched coaching videos of Ray Reardon, Terry Griffiths, Steve Davis and Jack Karneihm. I also then refereed to written material by different pros and coaches. However, i never ha a pre-shot routine or a set up and kept on playing on self help basis and developed my 50s breaks and that sole 67. Then I came to this forum and found it a great resource and started seeking advice. I believe I am consulting Terry and others on this forum since 2011 October. I still remember why I came to this forum and what was my first post; it was regarding how to develop CONSISTENCY.

I have been having problems with being consistent: therefore I would play fine one day and during that day no one would be able to beat me honestly I would suddenly become a mean machine for one day and my mates would comment hey Sidd would you miss something tonight or shall we pack afterwards the next day I will be full of expectations and there I would go... missing missing and missing... This kept me wondering what on earth did I do wrong? So I kept blaming my technique thinking there was some glitch somewhere and hence I would try to improve on every aspect like the girp (merely the grip its formation and looseness etc costed my around 3 months or even more and still I sometimes think its not correct) and similarly other things.

Vmax: You are right as much as Terry on this part; yes I do tend to get carried away in the ocean of technique but I only do that in trying to improve and achieve the standard that i know I already am capable of. I should be making breaks of at least 40 every now and then but I find myself missing and even making 20s hardly this kills me deep down but I am never giving up on this ... no way.

I have decided that my solution would be to post a video and have final recommendations on that and then only concentrate on that and nothing else in mind as that would take unnecessary thing off my mind. With comments on that where i am ok i wont bother about that... I am sure I will not have more than 10 points to work on once I have them identified.

I am strictly keeping your advice in mind and trying to only concentrate on getting the fundamentals right. Another thing I have noted in my game is (you pointed it perfectly Vmax) that I do tend to get under pressure pretty easily. Therefore, I have never been able to play good in club level tournaments; the best that I could get through to was a quarter final once) and then in other formats and sessions; if I am playing with only 5-6 reds available and the opponent has 40 plus then I start to get those tiny sweat drops on my forehead. Maybe that is why my grip gets tightened or something else happens that stops me from playing well... another thing here worth mentioning is that I would play my first three frames excellent and then afterwards I sort of loose focus and start getting down in terms with potting etc...

Anyway, I am trying my best and not giving up that easy... !!!

[ace man]

Sidd, what you should do is go to national level competitions to play against the best players in your country. I'm sure there are some good players who could give you a good beating. You might not like it, but at least you will see where you really are. You cannot improve your game if you get stuck being a hero at your local club playing friendly games against your mates on tables you know like the back of your pocket. It just doesn't work like that. Scoring a 50+ in such a friendly environment is nice but it doesn't mean anything at all. Don't be one of those guys who have illusions about their own game level.

Yes, work on your technique, but don't put too much pressure on yourself. I'm sure you think of this forum when you're down on a shot and you question yourself time after time. This is where all of your tinkering with technique comes from. All things considered, I think you scored some nice break numbers. If your technique were truly awful, you'd never cross 50, even in a friendly game. But you really need to man up and go to stiffer competitions. It is the only true test.

[CoachGavin]

Sorry vmax I disagree. In terms of improving players with high breaks of 60+ dont just miss due to lack of concentration or pressure although they can be reasons. In my opinion a big reason is the player can't consistently cue straight enough with various spins to pot balls and control the white. You make it sound like if a player can make 60 then with practice regular 100s are possible. I know plenty of players in this category and you can see that they don't make big breaks due to poor position or by coming accross the cue ball and missing a pot. These are technical faults and need correcting.

However I do agree that constant messing about with your technique will ruin your game especially if you try doing it without a coach. Also don't just change things unless they need changing

[CoachGavin]

Sorry vmax I disagree. In terms of improving players with high breaks of 60+ dont just miss due to lack of concentration or pressure although they can be reasons. In my opinion a big reason is the player can't consistently cue straight enough with various spins to pot balls and control the white. You make it sound like if a player can make 60 then with practice regular 100s are possible. I know plenty of players in this category and you can see that they don't make big breaks due to poor position or by coming accross the cue ball and missing a pot. These are technical faults and need correcting.

However I do agree that constant messing about with your technique will ruin your game especially if you try doing it without a coach. Also don't just change things unless they need changing

[throtts]

Sorry vmax I disagree. In terms of improving players with high breaks of 60+ dont just miss due to lack of concentration or pressure although they can be reasons. In my opinion a big reason is the player can't consistently cue straight enough with various spins to pot balls and control the white. You make it sound like if a player can make 60 then with practice regular 100s are possible. I know plenty of players in this category and you can see that they don't make big breaks due to poor position or by coming accross the cue ball and missing a pot. These are technical faults and need correcting.

However I do agree that constant messing about with your technique will ruin your game especially if you try doing it without a coach. Also don't just change things unless they need changing

Absolutely, Gavin,

When you start hitting past the 40s you always have to play certain shots that one is not quite familiar with. Example, tonight I placed the cue ball dead straight on the yellow to pot it in its yellow pocket, the cue ball was placed just pass the blue spot area and yellow was near its spot. I was practicing a nicely timed screw shot to play the green on its spot next, it's amazing how little false you have to put in to this shot too pull it off, if its cued straight and timed well its so sweet. That sort of shot and many other shots are only going to be pulled off with practice. When your cueing well the 12 by 6 table seems a lot smaller.

I fully understand this 10000 hour practice bracket to get to the pro standard and then there is no guarantee ..

[pottr]

I agree with Gavin. The reason most players who pot a decent ball but struggle to top 50/60 breaks is because they play the wrong shot in the balls too often.

They just don't recognise the correct shot, no matter the situation.

[Sidd]

Sidd, what you should do is go to national level competitions to play against the best players in your country. I'm sure there are some good players who could give you a good beating. You might not like it, but at least you will see where you really are. You cannot improve your game if you get stuck being a hero at your local club playing friendly games against your mates on tables you know like the back of your pocket. It just doesn't work like that. Scoring a 50+ in such a friendly environment is nice but it doesn't mean anything at all. Don't be one of those guys who have illusions about their own game level.

Yes, work on your technique, but don't put too much pressure on yourself. I'm sure you think of this forum when you're down on a shot and you question yourself time after time. This is where all of your tinkering with technique comes from. All things considered, I think you scored some nice break numbers. If your technique were truly awful, you'd never cross 50, even in a friendly game. But you really need to man up and go to stiffer competitions. It is the only true test.

Thanks Aceman: there is no substitute to what you have mentioned. Playing better players is the only way. I remember Steve Davis saying in a documentary on Steve Davis "Doing the Business" that Barry Hearn organised a few matches between Steve and Hendry when he was rising and Berry would ask Steve to go down there and crush him and Steve says he'd used to do that in every match. But then he says he did not know that that bashing would turn Hendry in to the solid player that he became and then ruled snooker for a decade.

However, I think you mistook me I never stated I am a good player or a hero of any sort. I would go for playing daily and get beaten up mostly all the time. Even at times by younger junior players below my standard and that amazes me. Every dog has his day and yes a day comes when I am invincible in that circle of course and can take on even better player than me (80 plus break standard). I shall try to manage time and go to other clubs as well but my problem is that I still do not consider myself ready for that.. inconsistency and all that.

Yes, it is true indeed that while I am down many things come to my mind and I perhaps start experimenting and whatever I learnt from this forum I try to improve in that department but then that crushes my technique and game all together. However, I still consider myself a 50 break standard player and nothing more but what I am struggling with is that for a 50 break standard I should be making 30s and 40s at regular intervals right? once i achieve that i will consider that my technique is solid and cemented in to my nature and then only shall I look forward to 70s and 80s...

[Sidd]

Guys; what Vmax is trying to state is on the confidence level. Once I needed 34 and there was only 35 on the table now believe it or not I took the red which was on the top cushion and a half ball made a black then took the yellow from bottom cushion quarter ball with check side for the green and cleared... It was amazing indeed for a person of my calibre who cant pot even those easy ones...

The other day in practice I placed similar red and similar yellow and missed 6 out of 10 or maybe 7. It is a hard shot to make I know but then that day something had happened... If my technique was that crappy I could not have done so but then in practice I could not do so and kept wondering what happened and then that took me to think tight grip, no timing, back fingers loose ever after delivery elbow drop introducing the shoulder ... ... ... all sorts of things.

What Vmax is saying is that if i could do 67 and 56 from a difficult situation including this 35 clearence then i should at least be making 30s and 40s at times right ? If I am not then it has to do with confidence, concentration, eyes on OB...

CoachGavin: You are also right no doubt. Griffiths once said in his coaching video; for player of 70 break standard almost 80% of their problems lie with the grip. What does this mean? This means that for player who are making REGuLAR 70s and not going beyond 80 plus; most of their technique fault is in the grip... why? perhaps because approaching 80 plus requires hitting the pack; soft cannons on the reds; nudging the red off the side cushion etc and that really requires proper grip pressure and balance or else you end up hitting a fraction too hard or a fraction too soft. So you are right in that respect no doubt. However what Vmax and i are saying here is that for those in 70 break standard they make 50s every now and then right... there is my problem !

[Sidd]

I agree with Gavin. The reason most players who pot a decent ball but struggle to top 50/60 breaks is because they play the wrong shot in the balls too often.

They just don't recognise the correct shot, no matter the situation.

True dear Pottr. But not only that, with me, what happens is that once in the balls and having scored 27 being on a baby three quarter red that needs a nice smooth stun for the black.... and I would visualise, aim, stand behind, calmly do down, feather, front pause, nice and slow back swing, final back pause, smooth delivery, grip hand to the chest, follow through and .... MISS is that even possible well for me it has been so ! I just cant get to know what caused me to miss such a baby sitter.

[Sidd]

Absolutely, Gavin,

When you start hitting past the 40s you always have to play certain shots that one is not quite familiar with. Example, tonight I placed the cue ball dead straight on the yellow to pot it in its yellow pocket, the cue ball was placed just pass the blue spot area and yellow was near its spot. I was practicing a nicely timed screw shot to play the green on its spot next, it's amazing how little false you have to put in to this shot too pull it off, if its cued straight and timed well its so sweet. That sort of shot and many other shots are only going to be pulled off with practice. When your cueing well the 12 by 6 table seems a lot smaller.

I fully understand this 10000 hour practice bracket to get to the pro standard and then there is no guarantee ..

100% correct. I once took a similar yellow. It was in line with its spot but nearer to the pocket and the white just above blue and it was a three quarter spot. I needed to go for the red near the black and I did not want to stun it with side and go from the cushion so I deep screwed it and the white sort or arced and screwed nicely for the red... I realised that in that shot although the white covered such a huge distance; I did not hit it real hard.... it is timing indeed it is.

[vmax4steve]

You make it sound like if a player can make 60 then with practice regular 100s are possible. I know plenty of players in this category and you can see that they don't make big breaks due to poor position or by coming accross the cue ball and missing a pot. These are technical faults and need correcting.

And yet they have controlled the cue ball and cued straight to make that 60+ before the shot they have finally missed which is very likely due to lack of concentration or nervousness which results in a cueing error that leads to the missed pot.
It's the shot they have missed and the reason/s why they have missed it that is the most important thing IMO. You don't make a 60+ break if you constantly cue across the cue ball or fail to control the cue ball all the time.

These players don't have faults in their technique, they tend to drop out of the good technique they have far more often than the ton+ players do yet essentially they can be just as good and be ton+ players themselves if they keep themselves together, have belief in their abilty, take confidence from that belief and play with a relaxed can do attitude and lose the fear. Sometimes one needs to just do it once to get that confidence and get the ball rolling.

I wonder how many of us know that the bloke we play regularly has an obvious fault that crops up at times yet we say nothing because on a conscious or subconscious level we want to keep that advantage so that we beat him.

[vmax4steve]

True dear Pottr. But not only that, with me, what happens is that once in the balls and having scored 27 being on a baby three quarter red that needs a nice smooth stun for the black.... and I would visualise, aim, stand behind, calmly do down, feather, front pause, nice and slow back swing, final back pause, smooth delivery, grip hand to the chest, follow through and .... MISS is that even possible well for me it has been so ! I just cant get to know what caused me to miss such a baby sitter.

Took your eye off the contact point of the object ball Sidd, simple as that. Forget the rest and just concentrate on that and the rest will follow.

[CoachGavin]

I think terry says about the grip because a good grip allows you to play all the shots needed. If your grip is not good then you will struggle to progress as your lack of shot variety will hold you back.

When you play you shouldnt be thinking of your technique. You should be able to just get down and play the shot and by the sound of it you are still aware of what you are doing. Use solo practice to concentrate on technical stuff and then when playing just play without thinking about your technique.

[CoachGavin]

I think terry says about the grip because a good grip allows you to play all the shots needed. If your grip is not good then you will struggle to progress as your lack of shot variety will hold you back.

When you play you shouldnt be thinking of your technique. You should be able to just get down and play the shot and by the sound of it you are still aware of what you are doing. Use solo practice to concentrate on technical stuff and then when playing just play without thinking about your technique.