Side on the object ball

[misspentoldage]

What is the effect on the cue ball of imparting side if it only strikes the object ball and does not subsequently touch a cushion? Does running side or check side operate off the object ball or only off the cush?

[nrage]

What is the effect on the cue ball of imparting side if it only strikes the object ball and does not subsequently touch a cushion? Does running side or check side operate off the object ball or only off the cush?

Side spin on the white has no effect on the path of the white ball off the object ball (the carom angle path).

These videos have the best explanation of the various effects that I've found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J0I6IgLlo8 - part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oii0UhnYjCc - part 2

Side spin may have an effect on the path of the white prior to contact with the object ball however, in the way of deflection/squirt and then swerve.

And, there are some high speed videos showing what looks like "spin transfer" on pool balls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj9mkTDRciA

But, I doubt that, if it happens with snooker balls, has any real effect on the table.

[Sidd]

absolutely spot on Nrage... side on CB after contacting OB has no affect impact whatsoever until it hits a cushion... This concept has to be removed and Nic Barrow does it nicely....

Misspentoldage: try this for yourself... Blue on spot white behing it in centre pocket.. straight nice little shot... now pot it with follow + left/right hand side aiming to in off the white in the same pocket and then with screw +right/left hand side aiming to in off white in the pocket behing it..... if you play this shot well and properly you will notice that the white WILL get in off in a straight line in follow and screw shots and you will get your answer... if the side is to deflect white's angle after contacting OB; this will be proved wrong.... I have learnt it from a video of nic Barrow, then tried it 5 times each and in off was there so unless the cloth of the table is bas or has marks etc you wont find any trace of deflection on the CB having any side on it...

hope this helps.

[misspentoldage]

Thanks, guys. That was always my assumption. The only reason I asked the question is that watching pros on TV recently they often seem to screw with side even when not using the cushions. Perhaps it's just the camera angle that makes it look that they are not striking the bottom centre of the ball.

[nrage]

Thanks, guys. That was always my assumption. The only reason I asked the question is that watching pros on TV recently they often seem to screw with side even when not using the cushions. Perhaps it's just the camera angle that makes it look that they are not striking the bottom centre of the ball.

Some people use side, relying on the known deflection of their cue (deflection is fairly consistent and reliable) to make tiny adjustments to angle i.e. the just off straight pot can be made by aiming straight and adding a touch of side. The shot is only possible however at certain distances, generally shorter ones, as over longer distances you might get a later swerve effect on the path of the white.

[vmax4steve]

Thanks, guys. That was always my assumption. The only reason I asked the question is that watching pros on TV recently they often seem to screw with side even when not using the cushions. Perhaps it's just the camera angle that makes it look that they are not striking the bottom centre of the ball.

This is advanced positional play and all the pros do it when needed to change the angle the cue ball comes off the object ball using the deflection and subsequent arcing of the cue ball along the cloth. The cue ball will deflect to one side, then come back onto the correct potting line, therefore approaching the object ball on a slightly different line from its original position on the table.
Willie Thorne and all the old pros call it 'helping side' as it was used a lot back in the day on thicker napped cloths. It's not used as often now as most pros are plain ball strikers but it is a shot that is in their armoury.

[johnroger]

As a billiards player,and a reader of many billiards books I belive that the use of side changers the throw angle after contact with the object ball. If the natural angle (halfball) inoff is not on; either too narrow or too wide then the use of side will allow the player to still make the shot.The use of running side will widen the angle and check will reduce the angle.Try this combination of shots
1. Natural halfball inoff;cueball centre pocket jaws,objectball black spot halfball inoff top pocket
2. Same set; strong runningside?
3 Same set; strong checkside?
Please let me know what you find as this has always puzzled me as I have also tried the blue and white across the table and found the same results i.e no change to the run of the cue ball??
The different throw angle when using side is of course effected by the change in the approach course of the cue ball i.e the slight curve across the table resulting from the side working on the nap and the slight change in contact angle on the object ball but I feel that this alone will not produce the dramatic effect on throw that is available from the use of strong side.

[johnroger]

As a billiards player,and a reader of many billiards books I belive that the use of side changers the throw angle after contact with the object ball. If the natural angle (halfball) inoff is not on; either too narrow or too wide then the use of side will allow the player to still make the shot.The use of running side will widen the angle and check will reduce the angle.Try this combination of shots
1. Natural halfball inoff;cueball centre pocket jaws,objectball black spot halfball inoff top pocket
2. Same set; strong runningside?
3 Same set; strong checkside?
Please let me know what you find as this has always puzzled me as I have also tried the blue and white across the table and found the same results i.e no change to the run of the cue ball??
The different throw angle when using side is of course effected by the change in the approach course of the cue ball i.e the slight curve across the table resulting from the side working on the nap and the slight change in contact angle on the object ball but I feel that this alone will not produce the dramatic effect on throw that is available from the use of strong side.

[Sidd]

As a billiards player,and a reader of many billiards books I belive that the use of side changers the throw angle after contact with the object ball. If the natural angle (halfball) inoff is not on; either too narrow or too wide then the use of side will allow the player to still make the shot.The use of running side will widen the angle and check will reduce the angle.Try this combination of shots
1. Natural halfball inoff;cueball centre pocket jaws,objectball black spot halfball inoff top pocket
2. Same set; strong runningside?
3 Same set; strong checkside?
Please let me know what you find as this has always puzzled me as I have also tried the blue and white across the table and found the same results i.e no change to the run of the cue ball??
The different throw angle when using side is of course effected by the change in the approach course of the cue ball i.e the slight curve across the table resulting from the side working on the nap and the slight change in contact angle on the object ball but I feel that this alone will not produce the dramatic effect on throw that is available from the use of strong side.

i believe it may not be case. the throw can only be seen after hitting a cushion. what Vmax and Nrage are talking about is that marginal change in path to a few millimeters that pros use for better positioning. If there is a half ball pot with natural angle in off it will be in off with running or check side for sure. However, what saves you here is not the side but perhaps follow or stun or backspin. Follow shortens the angle and screw enlarges it and so does stun but lesser than screw...

[PatBlock]

So, if I'm reading this right, when comparing two identical shots (3/4 ball to the left, 2ft between CB & OB for argument's sake), one played with center bottom striking and the other played with bottom and right, there's absolutely no difference in the angle at which the cueball comes off the object ball. Even though the comparative orientations of the cueball spin were very different and baring in mind that it's the friction/reaction between spinning cueball and cloth which causes that change in angle of deflection.

Is that the general consensus? Or am I misunderstanding the point?

(I'm not talking about the "Helping Side" effect which vmax described, just the post contact reaction.)

-

[vmax4steve]

The different throw angle when using side is of course effected by the change in the approach course of the cue ball i.e the slight curve across the table resulting from the side working on the nap and the slight change in contact angle on the object ball but I feel that this alone will not produce the dramatic effect on throw that is available from the use of strong side.

I feel that it is this alone that causes the throw effect, and it's exaggerated when using bottom side as the cue ball will arc quite a bit more. Try playing a straight pot blue in the middle from the green side of the table using top left hand side and then compare it to bottom left hand side. Play the shot at a gentle pace and you will notice a different run of the cue ball which will be more pronounced with bottom left hand side than with top left hand side.

[vmax4steve]

i believe it may not be case. the throw can only be seen after hitting a cushion. what Vmax and Nrage are talking about is that marginal change in path to a few millimeters that pros use for better positioning. If there is a half ball pot with natural angle in off it will be in off with running or check side for sure. However, what saves you here is not the side but perhaps follow or stun or backspin. Follow shortens the angle and screw enlarges it and so does stun but lesser than screw...

Sorry Sidd but you are mistaken. The effect is more than just a few millimetres and billiard players use this effect to make in offs without the need for stun or screw and snooker players can use the same effect to avoid in offs without the need for stun or screw. Set up a certain plain ball pot and run through in off, and then play the shot with bottom and running and then bottom and check side and you should avoid the in off. The bottom is played like you would a drag shot, ie the backspin has stopped by the time the cue ball reaches the object ball so that it's not the backspin that avoids the in off but the more pronounced arcing along the cloth.
Remember to aim to allow for initial cue ball deflection and subsequent arcing otherwise the experiment will be worthless.
Also remember that the effect is more pronounced playing across the nap with the cue ball spinning in the direction of the nap rather than against it.

[nrage]

If there is sufficient distance between the white and object ball for the power used, you can get the arc being described.

When you play with plain left/right hand side the white spins like a top. The arc is produced by the nap, where the rotation causes an increase in friction on one side, and decrease on the other. The increase occurs on the side spinning toward the direction of travel and into the cloth/nap.

The other side effect you can get is to make the white spin like a drill bit, as in a masse shot. This typically has a greater effect because the spin is applied over the entire contact area, not just one side. You can get this by playing plain left/right with an elevated butt of the cue.

[vmax4steve]

When you play with plain left/right hand side the white spins like a top.

Actually the cue ball will spin on an off centre axis rather like the planet earth does. This is something Moglet pointed out to me on a different thread some time ago. To see this effect use a striped pool ball as a cue ball, place it on the table with the stripe exactly horizontal and play it with either right or left hand side. You will see the axis of the spinning ball quite clearly because of the stripe.

[nrage]

Actually the cue ball will spin on an off centre axis rather like the planet earth does. This is something Moglet pointed out to me on a different thread some time ago. To see this effect use a striped pool ball as a cue ball, place it on the table with the stripe exactly horizontal and play it with either right or left hand side. You will see the axis of the spinning ball quite clearly because of the stripe.

Interesting. Are you saying it's not possible to get a perfectly vertical axis no matter how well you strike it? If so, is this off center axis caused by the unbalance in friction at the contact point do you suppose?