Side on the object ball

[Giggity1984]

Great website for those who want to get deep into the physics of cue ball sports...........

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_ar...2007/jan07.pdf

[vmax4steve]

Interesting. Are you saying it's not possible to get a perfectly vertical axis no matter how well you strike it? If so, is this off center axis caused by the unbalance in friction at the contact point do you suppose?

I have no idea why, my guess would be that the forward rotation along the cloth coupled with the sidespin on the ball produces this effect as it happens also on napless cloths. It doesn't matter why it's just best to know that this is how the ball behaves and IMO this is what produces the arcing along the cloth after the initial deflection.
Contact Moglet on this forum as he is a bit of an expert on such things.

[nrage]

I have no idea why, my guess would be that the forward rotation along the cloth coupled with the sidespin on the ball produces this effect as it happens also on napless cloths. It doesn't matter why it's just best to know that this is how the ball behaves and IMO this is what produces the arcing along the cloth after the initial deflection.

Even a napless cloth is not perfectly uniform. Plus, the ball starts by sliding not rolling so the irregular effect of friction on the white probably causes any off center rotation.

This effect is quite small, right? So, you need a bit of distance after the contact to see it? i.e. if we set up a 1/2 ball blue to the middle, such that the white will head toward the top/bottom cushion when played plain ball. We can test the effect by playing the same shot with both side spin and see it's effect, yes?

Would the same shot, played with a larger distance between white and blue (to allow the white to arc on the way to the blue) show a different, or larger effect?

Contact Moglet on this forum as he is a bit of an expert on such things.

Thanks.

[Sidd]

Sorry Sidd but you are mistaken. The effect is more than just a few millimetres and billiard players use this effect to make in offs without the need for stun or screw and snooker players can use the same effect to avoid in offs without the need for stun or screw. Set up a certain plain ball pot and run through in off, and then play the shot with bottom and running and then bottom and check side and you should avoid the in off. The bottom is played like you would a drag shot, ie the backspin has stopped by the time the cue ball reaches the object ball so that it's not the backspin that avoids the in off but the more pronounced arcing along the cloth.
Remember to aim to allow for initial cue ball deflection and subsequent arcing otherwise the experiment will be worthless.
Also remember that the effect is more pronounced playing across the nap with the cue ball spinning in the direction of the nap rather than against it.

I was only referring to plain ball striking with side. If you in off with plain ball you will in off with right/left hand side (plain ball striking) like side with middle CB striking... Playing it with screw top or even drag will surely deflect the path even without hitting a cushion but try to play a blue or pink straight full ball in a pocket and in off then do that with plain ball left/right hand side; you will still in off without any deflection...!!!

[vmax4steve]

I was only referring to plain ball striking with side. If you in off with plain ball you will in off with right/left hand side (plain ball striking) like side with middle CB striking... Playing it with screw top or even drag will surely deflect the path even without hitting a cushion but try to play a blue or pink straight full ball in a pocket and in off then do that with plain ball left/right hand side; you will still in off without any deflection...!!!

To me Sidd, plain ball striking means exactly that, plain ball without any kind of spin on it whatsoever, ie hitting the exact middle of the ball. So for you to say plain ball with left hand side is an oxymoron. I would assume that what you actually mean is to strike the cue ball at either 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock on the clock face of the cue ball yes ?

If so that will still induce enough arcing on the cloth to either avoid or neccessitate an in off as required. In fact you can avoid an in off simply by hitting the shot harder than neccessary therefore bouncing the cue ball off the object ball to make it take a wider trajectory. Other variables are contained in every shot Sidd and expert billiard players have a feel for these shots that take years of practise through trial and error.

[nrage]

In fact you can avoid an in off simply by hitting the shot harder than neccessary therefore bouncing the cue ball off the object ball to make it take a wider trajectory.

I think this wider trajectory is caused by the 90 degree aka "stun" rule. As in, if you hit it harder the cue ball slides for longer, if it hits the object ball before developing full forward roll it will head off at a wider angle.

[Sidd]

Vmax: yes you are right, I meant 3/9 o'clock. However, I still find it hard to accept that playing with side 3/9 o'clock you can avoid the in off... Now if that is correct then this will also be correct if side helps escaping a natural inoff pattern or path then if plain ball strike inoffs the CB then side should avoid it (with same power) changing power would mean what Nrage says; inducing stun effect I call it....

Nrage: this seems ot make sense to me...

Anyway, I think I will experiment on my own tonight at the practice table just to confirm... Shall share my findings

[Sidd]

Besides, I have tried to inoff CB potting blue straight in centre full ball and I can still inoff CB in same pocket following blue by playing 12 or 3 or 9 o clock -- and in the opposite pocket by playing 6 or 5 or 7 o clock ... I tried it with medium power strokes on all shots... If played perfectly you get an inoff always....

What does this proves...???

E.g. when you are dead straight on the blue in centre or say pink or black or yellow in their respective pockets making it a dead straight pot why cant you position using side ??? you cant yeah... Also whenever a pro is seen to be dead straight on a blue in centre why do we hear Dennis saying that he is dead straight and can only pot it with follow or screw and get a long red... Why dont we hear Dennis saying hmmmm maybe he can pot it with running side and arc the CB to the near jaw and get on that red near the pink etc..... Worth a thought no?

[vmax4steve]

Besides, I have tried to inoff CB potting blue straight in centre full ball.
E.g. when you are dead straight on the blue in centre or say pink or black or yellow in their respective pockets making it a dead straight pot why cant you position using side ??? you cant yeah

Try potting a dead straight blue in a corner pocket at a slow pace using side with the cue ball on the baulk line. If you pot this successfully you will then have a better idea about what I'm talking about.

[Sidd]

Try potting a dead straight blue in a corner pocket at a slow pace using side with the cue ball on the baulk line. If you pot this successfully you will then have a better idea about what I'm talking about.

You are right i wont be able to do that.. But in that shot dont you think the distance and cloth play their respective roles? Against the nap and the deflection shall be really high with the nap yes a little of course given that the CB is spinning and with distance and loosing power it will surely deflect.

But while escaping inoffs with side (no stun follow etc) we are talking about small distances or medium range distances .... potting a half ball pink with inoff in centre cannot be escaped with side spin only ... or is it? i still dont think do...

yes the larger the distance the more cloth to be covered the more the throw no doubt about that... when in the balls i dont think inoff path can be avoided with 3/9 o'clock hitting only (without power adjustment).

[vmax4steve]

But while escaping inoffs with side (no stun follow etc) we are talking about small distances or medium range distances .... potting a half ball pink with inoff in centre cannot be escaped with side spin only ... or is it? i still dont think do...

The distance the cue ball is from the object ball makes a greater difference to avoiding natural in offs. If you have a blue in the middle natural in off but the cue ball is only a foot or so away then probably you won't avoid the in off simply by using side, but if the cue ball is three or four feet away then you can depending on the pace of the shot as well.

Remember that pockets are a little over three inches wide and the deflection and arcing of the cue ball will be less than enough to avoid that three inches over a short distance than it could over a longer distance. There are certain situations where an in off can be avoided using side but the real benefit of using the deflection and arcing of the cue ball for positioning purposes when not using a cushion is the little cannons and kisses that you can make a little thicker or thinner when in and around the black and pink spots to help you gain slightly better position than you would with a plain ball shot.

There is an old bloke in our club who learned to play with the old heavy crystalate balls used in the 1960's and he plays this way all the time. Was a hundred break player in his youth, county champion and all that and still makes the odd 50+.

[Sidd]

Remember that pockets are a little over three inches wide and the deflection and arcing of the cue ball will be less than enough to avoid that three inches over a short distance than it could over a longer distance. There are certain situations where an in off can be avoided using side but the real benefit of using the deflection and arcing of the cue ball for positioning purposes when not using a cushion is the little cannons and kisses that you can make a little thicker or thinner when in and around the black and pink spots to help you gain slightly better position than you would with a plain ball shot.

Agreed... Now this makes more sense... So this means that side can be used when in the balls and hence playing with Side can and does deflect the course of the CB in shorter distances, particularly, when in the balls and therefore can be used ot thicker thinner cannon etc for positioning better....

I finally would like to hear Terry's comments on that before embarking to practice this factor.

[throtts]

Agreed... Now this makes more sense... So this means that side can be used when in the balls and hence playing with Side can and does deflect the course of the CB in shorter distances, particularly, when in the balls and therefore can be used ot thicker thinner cannon etc for positioning better....

I finally would like to hear Terry's comments on that before embarking to practice this factor.

Known as "helping side", Sidd. The tip positions is fairly subtle for use in and around the black.

The following shots are certainly not deemed as helping side. If I am low on a 1/2 ball black on its spot and I want to break the pack up, depending the way the reds are bunched I either stun, screw or go in to the pack striking the cue ball at 7 o clock, which will arc the cue ball spraying the reds out nicely, providing the cue ball got in that gap/hole of the reds I had seen on looking.

[Terry Davidson]

My recommendation is to avoid the use of side as much as possible and there is no such thing as 'helping side' (in that it doesn't help to make the object ball pot - however it will help to make the cueball as in billiards).

For sure, some pros and good players use side when in the balls to get the desired cannon or position and they will also use the side of the pocket. Both of these change the angle the cueball contacts the object ball and therefore the path the cueball takes away from the object ball.

When in the balls you can do just as much using centre-ball striking and the height of the tip on the cueball and the power used to achieve the same thing as helping side does however the pot is a lot easier when not using side. I will confess however, since I learned to use running side to pot a ball along the cushion I still use it and if I don't use it I usually miss a pot along the cushion. I believe this is because I'm used to aiming and potting this way for balls frozen on the cushion

Terry

[vmax4steve]

When in the balls you can do just as much using centre-ball striking and the height of the tip on the cueball and the power used to achieve the same thing as helping side does however the pot is a lot easier when not using side.

Terry

On modern table conditions this is true Terry, but back in the day when balls were heavier, cloths had a thicker nap and were a lot slower and pockets were tighter, using plain ball power shots were not on most of the time and the top players all used 'helping side' around the pink and black spots as more precise positional shots could then be played without having to hit the ball so hard.