Side on the object ball

[vmax4steve]

That said, a very good player likely doesn't need to use side (on modern tables) very often in a break unless they lose position, and that same player will not intentionally play for a position which then requires the use of side unless it really is the best of a bad set of options.

I disagree,
the very best players use side an awful lot more than people realise.
Judd Trump played an absolute beauty yesterday, a deep screw with check side black off its spot to come back across the table for a red which was really noticeable, but other shots in that break were played with varying amounts of side that weren't noticed because the effects were subtle but important in regards to building that break.

[pottr]

Trying to do the same shots as the pros is something that should be done in solo practice IMO. There you can build up your skills and confidence until some particular shot gets to its "70%"-mark. When that happens, it's time to implement it into friendly matches and in competition.

That's the most sensible way to go.

Judd Trump played an absolute beauty yesterday, a deep screw with check side black off its spot to come back across the table for a red which was really noticeable, but other shots in that break were played with varying amounts of side that weren't noticed because the effects were subtle but important in regards to building that break.

That was a lovely shot, back to the wall at the point.

[nrage]

I disagree,
the very best players use side an awful lot more than people realise.

I can't be certain but we could do a bit of research and see. Lets pick a few breaks and see if we can count the # of pots played with side.

I'll start with the first break which springs to mind, Ronnie's fastest 147:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3hv9cCx5xg

Of the 36 shots, I am fairly sure that 33 of them were not played with side. There are 3 I am less certain about; @2.20, the green and the pink. I suspect the pink had no side, just some screw which flattened the angle. The green seemed to widen slightly off the cushion, but I'm not sure.

This is an example of a break where Ronnie pretty much never loses position, so it's not surprising to me that there is little use of side. I think if we pick a break where someone does lose position a bit more we'll see more shots with side. I think we want century breaks or higher to get a good sampling of shots and break building.

Who wants to go next?

[pottr]

1 - Black on 25, steady run with right hand side.
2 - Black on 57, screw back with right hand side.
3 - Black on 73, steady run with left hand side.
4 - Black on 89, top spin with a touch of right hand side.
5 - Black on 97, slight stun with a trace of left hand side.
6 - Black on 105, deep stun with left hand side.
7 - Black on 113, screw with right hand side.
8 - Yellow, natural with a touch of left hand side.
9 - Green, stun with left hand side.
10 - Brown, stun with a trace of right hand side.

That's my take on his break. I count ten shots with some form of side. Over a quarter.

[ace man]

Of the 36 shots, I am fairly sure that 33 of them were not played with side. There are 3 I am less certain about;

Only 3, or even 6? Impossible.

I counted 12 shots with side. Could be wrong on a few, but not far off.

[pottr]

I already told you it's ten, take it as gospel

Haha, that is the problem with trying to work it out. Some people recognise shots with side as shots which I like to call 'rescue shots', where you need to play closer to extreme side to pull yourself back into ideal position.

I play a lot of shots with what I call 'helping side' as they mean I can hit the ball less firm to exaggerate the angles that natural stuns, screws and follow throughs provide.

Some wouldn't classify those shots as playing with side as you are only moving slightly across on the horizontal axis of the cue ball. But the effect is evident even with those minute changes.

When I'm in the balls, I like to play shots at the same pace and rythmn if possible. Helping side allows me to do this.

Hope that makes sense.

[nrage]

That's my take on his break. I count ten shots with some form of side. Over a quarter.

Thanks guys! I said 3 initially to get people interested in proving me wrong and pottr has certainly done that

I definitely agree with 6 of the ones pottr has identified but I'm not sure about the other 4.

Perhaps the rest are just more subtle so I'm not seeing them, or perhaps the camera angle is fooling me but your knowledge of angles is better so you know they have to have side to do what they're doing.

Are pottr pots the same ones you saw aceman?

AGREE:

1 - Black on 25, steady run with right hand side.

Dead right, missed that I had thought the stun angle was enough to get position, but you're right, a little RHS was needed to bring it back.

2 - Black on 57, screw back with right hand side.

This is the @2.20 I wasn't sure about. I think I agree with you, at first glance the angle off the cushion was the same as the original angle from white to black - but, when the white comes back off the black it actually comes off lower (because the pot wasn't straight) so the angle onto the cushion is narrower than first suggested. RHS widens it back out again. Well spotted.

3 - Black on 73, steady run with left hand side.

Dead right again This is a mirror of the first one, again the stun angle is actually straight onto the cushion so LHS is needed to bring it back.

5 - Black on 97, slight stun with a trace of left hand side.

Yep, right again.

6 - Black on 105, deep stun with left hand side.

The ball definitely widens off the cushion by a fraction. So, LHS is most likely but this got me wondering if the same effect can be achieved by some screw kicking in at the last minute?

7 - Black on 113, screw with right hand side.

I have to agree again.

NOT SURE:

4 - Black on 89, top spin with a touch of right hand side.

I don't see the RHS on this one. I think the top is arcing the cue ball forward and achieving the angle.

8 - Yellow, natural with a touch of left hand side.

If there is LHS it must have been only a very small amount because I can't see any change in the angle off the cushion here.

9 - Green, stun with left hand side.

I'm still not sure about this. I might be able to see a tiny widening of angle but I don't think it makes very much difference at all. I wonder if things like this might be accidental side.. hard to imagine Ronnie doing that tho.

10 - Brown, stun with a trace of right hand side.

I can't see this one, angle looks normal off the cushion to me. Also, widening that angle is a bit dangerous isn't it, it might have taken him below the blue.

[ace man]

All in all, easily over 25%, performed by a man with greatest cueball control on particularly special day. And all that on highest quality table which he knows like the back of his pocket.
God help club players who try to get big breaks without any side spin at all on any shot.

[nrage]

I already told you it's ten, take it as gospel

Haha, that is the problem with trying to work it out. Some people recognise shots with side as shots which I like to call 'rescue shots', where you need to play closer to extreme side to pull yourself back into ideal position.

Those are the ones I think we all see immediately because the effect is usually much greater.

I play a lot of shots with what I call 'helping side' as they mean I can hit the ball less firm to exaggerate the angles that natural stuns, screws and follow throughs provide.

Angles off cushion or off the object ball? Does this only work with running side, or can you do it with check too?

Some wouldn't classify those shots as playing with side as you are only moving slightly across on the horizontal axis of the cue ball. But the effect is evident even with those minute changes.

When I'm in the balls, I like to play shots at the same pace and rythmn if possible. Helping side allows me to do this.

So the use of side makes the shots easier? Or you just prefer it? Could you play most of them without, for example?

[nrage]

All in all, easily over 25%, performed by a man with greatest cueball control on particularly special day. And all that on highest quality table which he knows like the back of his pocket.

That's why I picked this video to start with

For this analysis to be scientifically or statistically accurate we'd need to analyse a bunch more but I doubt anyone has the time/inclination. It's already been a bit of an eye opener for me and hopefully others.

God help club players who try to get big breaks without any side spin at all on any shot.

Indeed. Once a player gets to a certain level they should definitely start to practice with some side as even a little side seems to "help"

[ace man]

Are pottr pots the same ones you saw aceman?

Similar...I had two more blacks, final pink ball to me looks to have been potted with a trace of left hand side and screw. I missed the brown on my list it seems (probably wrong on that one).
There may have been a red or two potted with helping side, who knows.

[pottr]

4 - Black on 89, top spin with a touch of right hand side.

I could concede this one, I would have played it with a touch of right just to help guarantee the cannon... faintest touch.

Yellow - definitely, you can see the ball accelerate with the side. Again, playing that shot with a trace of left helps the pot and makes the margin for error with position much easier.

Green - again, could concede this because he was stretching, hard to tell as he didn't hit the shot super cleanly.

Brown - definitely, he usually plays the shot that way when clearing up. Again, it's only a trace, just makes the margin wider.

Angles off cushion or off the object ball? Does this only work with running side, or can you do it with check too?

The most common example in my play is when I finish too high on the black, I just drop it in with a touch of running side. Check side helps the cueball angle on the occasional cut back, but each will have the same effect in terms of amount.
Also, dropping in the colours off their spots, touch of side to widen angles.

So the use of side makes the shots easier? Or you just prefer it? Could you play most of them without, for example

It's horses for courses my friend. I have a smooth flowy follow through. I don't always strike to the chest, but I do definitely like to feel the shots. I don't worry about anything other than feeling that cue go through straight against my chin and chest.
My many hours of practice over my youth mean that it is easier for me to play the shots with side I have mentioned. It's not because they are easier, it's simply what I am used to doing repetitively.
I assure you, I didn't start out that way when I first picked up a cue. It's just about finding the arsenal of shots you feel comfortable with.
Yes, the hepling shots can all be played with out the side. But sometimes it requires you follow through firmer or softer to achieve what you could using helping side, whilst maintaining your usual follow through speed.

Tempo is important.

[pottr]

final pink ball to me looks to have been potted with a trace of left hand side and screw

Just a slow deep screw... cued beautifully as he does.

[nrage]

I could concede this one, I would have played it with a touch of right just to help guarantee the cannon... faintest touch.

...

So for this video you and I have kinda come to a consensus of around 8/36 shots or 22%. Not too bad for just a few minutes work.

The most common example in my play is when I finish too high on the black, I just drop it in with a touch of running side. Check side helps the cueball angle on the occasional cut back, but each will have the same effect in terms of amount.
Also, dropping in the colours off their spots, touch of side to widen angles.

It's horses for courses my friend. I have a smooth flowy follow through. I don't always strike to the chest, but I do definitely like to feel the shots. I don't worry about anything other than feeling that cue go through straight against my chin and chest.
My many hours of practice over my youth mean that it is easier for me to play the shots with side I have mentioned. It's not because they are easier, it's simply what I am used to doing repetitively.
I assure you, I didn't start out that way when I first picked up a cue. It's just about finding the arsenal of shots you feel comfortable with.
Yes, the hepling shots can all be played with out the side. But sometimes it requires you follow through firmer or softer to achieve what you could using helping side, whilst maintaining your usual follow through speed.

Tempo is important.

Ok, cool, that's pretty much my thinking also.

[pottr]

It's what I keep saying to my boy. The things I'm teaching him are to help him keep the cue on line.

We can all preach what we believe to be right but at the end of the day it is all about pushing that bit of wood through in a straight line and at a consistent tempo.

Every tip or point on coaching be it to do with the grip, stance, dropping the elbow whatever... It's all only part of the puzzle to pushing the cue through straight.
If you're fortunate enough to find a technique which will allow you to do that, then don't worry too much about fine tuning anything else. That's all that matters.