help with positional play

[ashbash]

Been thinking of trying to help friend of mines game. Now he pots some great stuff but never makes any brakes over 30 (normally)it's seems to me that it's all down to his lack of positional awareness/ability
he has as in the past had a few lessons from an ex pro but as far as I can tell his coaching only went as far as getting through the basics and he really could do with going and getting a few more lessons but until then I was hoping to try and advise him on a few routines to practice in order to help him with his positional play. So I'm looking for your thoughts so far I've tried Neil max on YouTube http://m.youtube.com/index?client=mv...-mBY2djs4h94vw any input appreciated thanks

[rovnos]

Just put the black on the spot and keep potting it, playing the next shot from where the cueball stops. Can then do the same with pink and blue. Then can move on to the black and a couple of reds around the black and then keep increasing the number of balls. One good tip is to try when possible to play the cueball of a cushion, as this makes judging pace much easier. Good look.

[alabadi]

I think positional play for me is my stumbling block too, its not easy to get correct positional play and would probably take years of practice, and a lot of trial and error.

for me i have a good idea what direction the cueball will take, its the speed it travels is the issue, different tables, different cloths, different balls all have an effect, and when the margins are very small, 1/4 or 1/2 and inch sometimes makes the diffence its not easy.

this is why we admire what we see on TV by the pros the control they have is almost like magic. its a technique they have spent
1000s of hours perfecting it on the practice table, so i guess the answer would be practice , practice, practice.

[nrage]

I think positional play for me is my stumbling block too, its not easy to get correct positional play and would probably take years of practice, and a lot of trial and error.

for me i have a good idea what direction the cueball will take, its the speed it travels is the issue, different tables, different cloths, different balls all have an effect, and when the margins are very small, 1/4 or 1/2 and inch sometimes makes the diffence its not easy.

The major and obvious factor controlling the speed of the white is the carom angle, or rather, for a fuller contact a higher percentage of the white's initial speed is transferred to the object ball, a thinner contact transfers less.

This simple aspect still trips me up a lot of the time, I haven't yet absorbed the effect into my subconscious so that I just know what the ratio is.

[alabadi]

The major and obvious factor controlling the speed of the white is the carom angle, or rather, for a fuller contact a higher percentage of the white's initial speed is transferred to the object ball, a thinner contact transfers less.

This simple aspect still trips me up a lot of the time, I haven't yet absorbed the effect into my subconscious so that I just know what the ratio is.

yeah i am not bad at determining the angle the white will come off the object ball, however i think for me is the power of the shot, i often in practice use the same height on the cueball and get different positions, the cueball travels more or less in the same direction but lands in different places.

onece i can master this i think my game will improve, its quite embarring at the moment because looking at me with my setup it is sound, this is not me blowing my own trumpet, i have been told this by coaches i have been to.

its so frustrating because i know i should do a lot better than i am at the moment. losing to players who haven't practiced a day in their life doesn't help too..lol

[mooneyy]

I think you didn't quite get nrages point there.

It's not about determining the angle the CB will come off the OB, it's more about how thin or thick you hit the OB and the energy transferred from CB to OB.

For example: You play a half ball shot with a certain amount of pace and plain ball striking so that the CB is rolling naturally at the time of impact. Now you play the same shot with exactly the same parameters, but a couple of mills thinner than half ball. The CB will now come off at about the same angle but will keep rolling over a longer distance.

[nrage]

yeah i am not bad at determining the angle the white will come off the object ball, however i think for me is the power of the shot, i often in practice use the same height on the cueball and get different positions, the cueball travels more or less in the same direction but lands in different places.

I think this is explained by a few facts/ideas.

The angle the white takes off the object ball is consistent/stable for a wide range of contacts around 1/2 ball, but the velocity isn't (I suspect/believe). I suspect the velocity changes linearly. So, you can get the same path and different velocities for various angles around 1/2 ball.

This video is good for explaining the distance each ball goes and carom angle stability for a 1/2 ball hit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vRi3Jih1Lg

So, a perfect 1/2 ball contact will take path A and travel distance Y.
A thick 1/2 ball contact will take path A and travel distance Y-something.
A thin 1/2 ball contact will take path A and travel distance Y+something.

I think the relationship between the difference in distance and the angle is linear. e.g. If a 1mm thick shot goes 5cm further, then a 1mm thin shot will also go 5cm further (assuming identical power), and so on. But, the path remains the same in both cases.

[nrage]

I think you didn't quite get nrages point there.

It's not about determining the angle the CB will come off the OB, it's more about how thin or thick you hit the OB and the energy transferred from CB to OB.

For example: You play a half ball shot with a certain amount of pace and plain ball striking so that the CB is rolling naturally at the time of impact. Now you play the same shot with exactly the same parameters, but a couple of mills thinner than half ball. The CB will now come off at about the same angle but will keep rolling over a longer distance.

Exactly .. and well explained, thanks.

[nrage]

yeah i am not bad at determining the angle the white will come off the object ball, however i think for me is the power of the shot, i often in practice use the same height on the cueball and get different positions, the cueball travels more or less in the same direction but lands in different places.

The other thing that occasionally catches me out, but less and less these days, is the stun/rolling carom angle. I occasionally strike a ball harder than I should, and get the stun angle (or a partial stun angle) when I wanted the rolling one. Then, of course, there are long shots where my cue power simply isn't up to the task of getting the full stun angle when I want it - but in these cases I am not "surprised".

its so frustrating because i know i should do a lot better than i am at the moment. losing to players who haven't practiced a day in their life doesn't help too..lol

Some people are naturally good at things but does that mean they don't deserve to be, or deserve to win because of it? Biologically speaking they've paid for that ability at the expense of something else. So, rather than looking at them and thinking "you don't deserve this" I try and realise this (and console myself with the notion that I could thrash them at something else)

[alabadi]

I think you didn't quite get nrages point there.

It's not about determining the angle the CB will come off the OB, it's more about how thin or thick you hit the OB and the energy transferred from CB to OB.

For example: You play a half ball shot with a certain amount of pace and plain ball striking so that the CB is rolling naturally at the time of impact. Now you play the same shot with exactly the same parameters, but a couple of mills thinner than half ball. The CB will now come off at about the same angle but will keep rolling over a longer distance.

i do understand what nrage was on about many thanks, i do realise the thinner the contact the further the cueball will travel and by contrast the thicker the contact the less distance the cueball will travel and the OB will travel further.

its what nrage mentioned sometimes i hit the cueball harder than necessary and get a slight stun effect rather than roll and vice versa.

its back to the practice table for me

[alabadi]

thanks nrage, i have seen these videos before and are some of my favourites, the guy explains very well.

this game is more technical than we think, so many outcomes can be achieved by altering very little. i have realised that it will take me years to master this game, maybe mastering it will never be achieved, but i'd like to get to a standard that i can be proud of at least.

[throtts]

Points above are true but there is no substitute for practice for good positional play. 90% of play practice will only improve position, 10% is what you read, may even be less than 10% imo...

[vmax4steve]

Line up practise where you don't allow the cue ball to disturb any other ball in the line is great practise for positional play and cue ball control.
You really learn to get the feel of the table, your cue and the connection between the tip and the cue ball, especially learning those deep soft screw shots to avoid cannons.

Also play some billiards so that you learn your natural angles and thus can determine whether or not to use side, screw, stun or top spin to make or avoid cannons and in offs.

[nrage]

i do understand what nrage was on about many thanks, i do realise the thinner the contact the further the cueball will travel and by contrast the thicker the contact the less distance the cueball will travel and the OB will travel further.

My main point was that not only is the above true, but that there is a range of angles (around 1/2 ball) where the above happens, but the path the ball takes doesn't change at all - this idea might explain why you get the same path, but different distances. It's more likely, if you're like me, that you're just hitting it harder/softer though

Points above are true but there is no substitute for practice for good positional play. 90% of play practice will only improve position, 10% is what you read, may even be less than 10% imo...

Agree totally. IMO the knowledge helps you understand the results, the practice (and only practice) helps you control them.

[alabadi]

Line up practise where you don't allow the cue ball to disturb any other ball in the line is great practise for positional play and cue ball control.
You really learn to get the feel of the table, your cue and the connection between the tip and the cue ball, especially learning those deep soft screw shots to avoid cannons.

Also play some billiards so that you learn your natural angles and thus can determine whether or not to use side, screw, stun or top spin to make or avoid cannons and in offs.

yes Vmax i agree line up is a good exercise to do, so frustrating when you over do it slightly on a good break where the cueball is just too close and you can't avoid contacting another ball, or on ocasions when you find yourself on the cushion.

i stopped doing this for a couple of months to concentrate on another aspect of my game, i have recently however i am starting with less balls now and build it up, i only lay 4 reds between the black and pink and see how many times i can clear them.
this might seem easier however i think it isn't because position is more precise, you can't run down the table for instance if you run out of position slightly

i can do it 4 times now once i reach 6 or above i will add a couple more reds and so on.