The Darned Elbow Drop

[Sidd]

OK hello again after long. I have been practicing and playing almost on a daily basis and I must say that there has been some consistency about my game. A couple of 40 odd breaks a 50 odd but then not much potting and hence missing every now and then .. missing those easy easy pots as well.

Still am struggling with the grip. This sounds stupid on my part that after playing for so many years and being on this forum and seeking advice and all that.. my grip still seems to bother me. I know its loose enough but then what is the correct looseness still bothers me. i know how Steve Davis mentions about the looseness but still while playing and missing easy short range pots I think its cuz of the grip being tightened or something... what else to think. I have managed to keep my grip relaxed and the hold is with thumb and two fingers, the last two just rest on the butt without exerting any force at all... Still i am missing and the fight is on...

Lately I have observed two things with elbow that are happening... i will explain them both hereunder and intend to seek advice on the same:

1. My elbow drop at the completion of the shot (delivery or follow through) is rather automatic. That is how i play. I know some people say not to introduce elbow drop so that you dont drop it early and bring shoulder in to play but then I cant control it as it happens naturally for me... My elbow drop on back swing just a bit and then drops considerably on shot completion. If I try to play with intension of not dropping it; it feels unnatural and not right. Should I just carry on with it.

2. I used a mirror the other day to check out with the elbow drop. i have noticed that sometimes my elbow would not drop dead straight but rather to my left (i am a lefty) and hence the elbow drops away from the body... any ideas whats causing this and how cna I get rid of it... This might be the reason for me missing those easy pots.

Best regards,
Sidd.

[hotpot]

To minimise the elbow dropping you can adapt your stance , put your back leg a little further back than normal , this should flatten your stance and your cue will level itself out automatically .

[j6uk]

Maybe you could upload a video (everyone is doing it) of you in action?
You don't need to be at the table you could be in your kitchen.

[buddfridgeman]

Hi, firstly I am no expert so I can only speak from my experience, I have been playing for 27 years and this year after some bad form I decided to change my grip. I do play to a decent standard and have very regular century breaks so I roughly now what to do to play well.
The reason behind my grip change was to try to stop a twist as my cue goes through, with the change I did manage to get rid of the twist but at huge cost to my consistency and confidence , I thought it would be a matter of time but I have now given up having tried this for about 6 months [dreadful snooker].
About a month ago I went back to my old grip and things are improving...I pretty much cup my four fingers around the butt very loosely with my thumb and first finger gripping .I feel comfortable again and I am starting to put other things right.....you mention your shoulder dropping well I had the same thing and this has been very difficult to cure but I am getting on top of this now with huge improvements to my long game.
I don’t know if it will work for you , but this is how I am overcoming the shoulder drop...100% concentration on keeping my head still...statue still on feathering on pause and on the stroke through...it’s so tough but if you can do this on one shot then there is no reason at all that with patience and practice you can’t do this on all your shots. I am about a week in , every session I go into with the sole intention of not moving my head and its getting better, I was moving my head and dropping the shoulder on all my long shots and missing most in the process but I am now able to stay still on about 60%-70% so still work in progress but the long potting is so much better.
There is one more thing that may help..when you are down on your shot keep the head still, try imagining that your eyes are on your grip hand.... in other words your line of sight is from your grip hand, dont know why but this helps in keeping my head still it may help you too.
Good luck

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

Your elbow drop should not be of concern to you. The reason it's flying out sometimes is the result of your brain attempting to correct something during the dynamic delivery. Now, what is this 'something?' I'm talking about.

Precisely it is the fact that for one reason or another your backswing has not been straight. This is most likely cause by a slight lifting of the head/shoulder area, perhaps only 2 or 3mm or so but enough for your brain to recognize something has gone wrong with the cue on the line of aim and then during the delivery your brain will attempt to correct this deviation from the line of aim and because the delivery is much more dynamic it will tend to over-correct and thus you get that 'flying elbow' or what we call the 'chicken wing'.

To correct this there are two important thing you MUST do (well actually THREE things). The first is to make sure your grip is nice and loose THROUGHOUT the stroke but I believe you might have reached that point already and are consistent with it (hopefully).

The second is to SLOW DOWN the backswing (during solo practice only is when you can concentrate on this) until you can absolutely and positively control it PRECISELY and keep it PERFECTLY STRAIGHT.

The third point is forget about trying to drop the elbow straight down all the time as this will lead to you concentrating on your technique too much. That flying elbow is the RESULT of another problem (crooked backswing most likely, but also could be tightening the grip or decelerating the cue early in the delivery) and if you eliminate the root cause of the problem you will also eliminate the flying elbow.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

You know your problem Sidd, we have discussed it over and over again. You take your eye off the contact point on the object ball at the moment of the strike. It's this that keeps the cue on line and going through straight and keeps your head and upper body still. How you can judge a cue action when looking in a mirror when your eye can't possibly be focussed on any sort of target is beyond me.
How can your cue go through straight when looking in a mirror ?????
Hand and eye co-ordination is key,
you hit what you are looking at,
you have to be focussed on the target and the target is the contact point on the object ball not the reflection of your elbow in a mirror.

Ask your friends to watch you when you're playing and tell you if you move on the shot or post a video of yourself so we can all see it.

[Sidd]

You know your problem Sidd, we have discussed it over and over again. You take your eye off the contact point on the object ball at the moment of the strike. It's this that keeps the cue on line and going through straight and keeps your head and upper body still. How you can judge a cue action when looking in a mirror when your eye can't possibly be focussed on any sort of target is beyond me.
How can your cue go through straight when looking in a mirror ?????
Hand and eye co-ordination is key,
you hit what you are looking at,
you have to be focussed on the target and the target is the contact point on the object ball not the reflection of your elbow in a mirror.

Ask your friends to watch you when you're playing and tell you if you move on the shot or post a video of yourself so we can all see it.

Thanks Steve. I can see you have a point there.. I shall see to it that I keep my eyes locked on EOB on every shot and yes lately I have achieved some kind of consistency and I can play well now at least 1 to 2 days a week if not all 6... Am trying hard though!!!

[Sidd]

Sidd:

Your elbow drop should not be of concern to you. The reason it's flying out sometimes is the result of your brain attempting to correct something during the dynamic delivery. Now, what is this 'something?' I'm talking about.

Precisely it is the fact that for one reason or another your backswing has not been straight. This is most likely cause by a slight lifting of the head/shoulder area, perhaps only 2 or 3mm or so but enough for your brain to recognize something has gone wrong with the cue on the line of aim and then during the delivery your brain will attempt to correct this deviation from the line of aim and because the delivery is much more dynamic it will tend to over-correct and thus you get that 'flying elbow' or what we call the 'chicken wing'.

To correct this there are two important thing you MUST do (well actually THREE things). The first is to make sure your grip is nice and loose THROUGHOUT the stroke but I believe you might have reached that point already and are consistent with it (hopefully).

The second is to SLOW DOWN the backswing (during solo practice only is when you can concentrate on this) until you can absolutely and positively control it PRECISELY and keep it PERFECTLY STRAIGHT.

The third point is forget about trying to drop the elbow straight down all the time as this will lead to you concentrating on your technique too much. That flying elbow is the RESULT of another problem (crooked backswing most likely, but also could be tightening the grip or decelerating the cue early in the delivery) and if you eliminate the root cause of the problem you will also eliminate the flying elbow.

Terry

Thanks for the advice Terry. I have been practicing on your advice and i can see that I am improving fractionally. I am trying to keep a slow slow backswing now and yes my head moves a fraction under pressure even though i think it doesnt but i have noticed lately that I will feel the chin brushing against the cue on feathering but then on the final backswing or else the final delivery the brushing is not felt.... This clearly means im moving/lifting the head; be it 1 mm... I will try to remain still now and see what happens.

On the grip Coach I noticed that something you advised greatly helped me and I scored a 48 only keeping that in mind with ease... You once said that those players who learn to use the inside of their thumb upper part and forefinger upper part to drive the cue can leanr the grip easily... I tried that and got instant results... I tried to maintain a loose grip and only keep the upper inner part of thumb and forefinger on the cue tighter whereas rest of the fingers and hand was loose and it helped me in driving through the CB nicely... However, it felt weird and still does but I am trying to get more used to with that ... Is that correct way.... another thing if I am taking a medium paced shot would the correct grip allow the cue to slide after striking if not held automatically by the grip hand.. if yes... then I can see that the grip is in fact something near to very very loose...!!!

[lennon11]

Be an artist not a robot....once yr technique is relativley sound,play by feel and instinct.focusing too much on cue action will muddle your play.

[armstm]

Be an artist not a robot....once yr technique is relativley sound,play by feel and instinct.focusing too much on cue action will muddle your play.

i get this feedback a lot at the club i play at and i have to say i think it is incorrect. if you look at the top 16 their technique is robotic. robotic is another way of saying consistent. even ronnie arguably the greatest artist of all time talks a lot about technique and his elbow is always in the same place at the start.

i played by feel and instinct for 15 years and had rotten technique and never made any progress.

[asprey]

i played by feel and instinct for 15 years and had rotten technique and never made any progress.

i can attest to that too .haha

[lennon11]

Like I said...ONCE YR TECHNIQUE IS SOUND ...play by feel and instinct.I also think there is a difference between relaxed repetitiveness and a tense robotic action.

[Sidd]

Be an artist not a robot....once yr technique is relativley sound,play by feel and instinct.focusing too much on cue action will muddle your play.

Thanks for the advice Lemon. But I have had some severe mental problems I know that Steve identified to me Anyway, I think I am through with that now. You are right- due to my OCPD I have been trying to play mechanically like a robot and used to think that if I miss a pot its my technique that is bad but now I have recently discovered the real real trick to playing my game my way I am so happy right now and can feel that i am on the verge of becoming an artist in snooker ASAP now

I will reveal the same in my new thread.

[j6uk]

Its now about what kind artist you wanna be, a Jackson Pollack or a Ralph Harris!? I like the idea of being a Picasso, you know girls on tap, vodka for breakfast and afternoon parties. All fuel for good sessions on the baize imho

[vmax4steve]

Thanks for the advice Lemon. But I have had some severe mental problems I know that Steve identified to me Anyway, I think I am through with that now.

Hold on there Sidd,
you do not have or have had severe mental problems

I certainly hope you don't see yourself as some sort of snooker Vincent Van Gogh who will cut off his ear if he fails a simple black when on 93.