Need some advice before i lose my sanity and punch a small child (joke)

[throtts]

I actuallu went back down today out of fustration....... had time on my own just think about keeping my eyes fixed. Made a 70 odd on my own. Im finding there is something wrong with my eyes and they are moving when I play the final stroke. Its even move noticable when im match play

70, not bad. Do you still wanna punch a small child..haha.

[Belloz22]

70, not bad. Do you still wanna punch a small child..haha.

Haha....... for those 5 mins or so..... no I didnt. Then I played a frame and re considered it, along with stealing a squirrels nuts !!!

[alabadi]

I hear you Belloz22, what you have said word for word is as if i wrote it, your situation is a mirror image of mine, i myself as you have been to a few coaches and they all say the same thing, my technique is sound and i should be making much higher breaks than i am.

well i won't go into my story, i hope that i can pass on some advice that either has been passed on to me or from my own experience that maybe can help.

some here suggested you go and see Nic Barrow, no doubt Nic is a great coach i myself have had half a day with him, now could i say that it made me a better player, i can't really however his knowledge and advice has helped in some ways.

like you said yourself coaches can help if you have a major problem with your technique, however if you have sound technique we usually play our best when we see a coach and everything we do there doesn't mirror what is happening to us on a daily basis. so we come away and we feel that nothing has changed and when we go back to practice we don't see no improvement.

what i would say from my experience is the more you practice the better you will get if you pay attention to technique and not just potting with no strategy or goal.

i am of an age that many say i am passed it and can't get to a very good level, i disagree and say that anyone if they put their mind to it put in the time and have a lot of determination and a will to learn can get to a very high standard, now the question is how long will that take?

if we look at the best players in the world we will all agree that they usually start around the age 8- 10 yrs old with the exception of a few that start earlier, and by the time they are 19-20 yrs old they are very high quality pros. so give or take 12 years.

now if we take into account they practice 5 days a week some 7, 6-8 hours a day so 50+ hours a week which is a lot.
so taking me i have only been playing 4 years i solo practice 8-10 hrs a week and play matches twice a week for around 6-8 hours, so that a total of 18 hours at best. that's a 1/4 of what a youngster would do so if it takes them 12 years to be a pro for me at the rate i am doing now would take me nearly 50 years to get the a pro level....well in theory anyway. so its almost impossible as i would be in my 90s.

but here is what i have learnt and i am learning everyday, a lot of snooker is confidence and the more knowledgeable you get the more confidence you are. i find that when you are confident you are less nervous the less nervous the less tension and more relaxed you become.

i am no expert or coach but i would say once the basics are there coaches don't usually help with the physical side of the game they are more mental support, they can give advice on tactics , shot selection and the thought that goes through a players mind once they are at the table.

i have seen 4-5 coaches and other than the very early ones that got my basics sorted none of the others have changed anything.

so what i think for you its a mental thing, and lots of practice. the more you practice the better your potting will get and the more confident you will be. if you want to see a coach Nic Barrow is good at explaining the mental aspects of the game so he could be of help.

i suggest to save you money take videos of yourself from lots of angles and using analysis software which can slow the video down (Kinovea) is a free software package that i use its brilliant, you can see things you might not be aware of, tiny movements or lifting of the head, elbow moving out on delivery ....etc.

so don't get too down and make sure that your solo practice has purpose and a goal. i am now practicing potting with accurate position, i will mark where i want the cueball to end up to an inch and spend hours until i nail it, after all it position that lets us down most times than potting, if we can finish within a foot of our next shot most of the time whats stopping us making high breaks. if we can make 20-30 we should be able to get 40-60 or 80-100 as long as we have good control of the white, my downfall is position and long pots, so i will practice line ups or just setting 3-4 reds around the black and keep practicing position for each shot, if i don't make it i will rest each shot until i get it.

i am determined to make it to a high standard for as long as it takes. i would say to you dont give up , as long as you have the passion for the game it will come.

i hope that sharing my experience which is in essence very similar to your you can find some of the things in this message useful.

ps

oh i made my highest break of 48 a few weeks ago after been stuck on 28/29 for 3 years. so it shows it doesn't matter how long it takes if you persist improvement will come

[armstm]

that's great alabadi, well done!

i agree with all alabadi has said. if you make a 70 your technique must be fairly sound.

in matches, accept you will play less well due to pressure but keep at it and the pressure will disappear gradually.

if there's a particular kind of "easy" shot you miss make a note of it and redo it, and eventually you will notice where you are going wrong, as alabadi stated perhaps look to video yourself.

[Belloz22]

Thanks for the advice Alabadi, given me a few things to think about there

After posting this thread, i have actually been thinking alot about my game, especially where i felt i was going wrong. Anyway, i actually went down the club for a third time today as my team were playing a match, so i jumped on the table after and had 2 frames. First fram i had a 41 clearance, 2nd game nowt. Anyway, i found the more i tried to keep my eyes still, the better i seemed to pot. However, i find that no matter what, my eyes are shifting on the shot - no whether that is my eyes compensating from my head, or me not trusting myself i dont know, but either way, im finding it had to keep my eyes on the exact spot on the object ball.

The strange thing is, when i was making my 70 odd earlier, and 41 clearance, i noticed i play pretty much nothing like my coaches have told me to play, i was playing quicker, less feathering, long pull back etc. So to me, all i can think is what the coaches have taught me, has gone completely against what is naturally to me.

Now this is where i agree with Alabadi - and i did post a thread on this before - Coaching Bias - where players will always try harder, and display a better standard of technique when a coach is watching them, compared to what they would really do in a match scenario when a coach isnt watching, thus the coach never really see's the technique is a real condition. Even if they do set up scenarios to replicate open play etc, the player always knows a coach is watching.

Now im going slightly off topic here......... but i am starting to feel coaching has inhibited the way i should play, which is nautral to me, and not maybe robotic perfect. The question is though, is why i still make the small mistakes, and this im starting to believe is down to my eyes

[alabadi]

Thanks for the advice Alabadi, given me a few things to think about there

i found the more i tried to keep my eyes still, the better i seemed to pot. However, i find that no matter what, my eyes are shifting on the shot - no whether that is my eyes compensating from my head, or me not trusting myself i dont know, but either way, im finding it had to keep my eyes on the exact spot on the object ball.

The question is though, is why i still make the small mistakes, and this im starting to believe is down to my eyes

this sounds like doubting yourself. i find that if i am down on the shot if i am fishing for the correct spot on the OB, i get up now and start over, its a sign that you are not on the correct line.

i use to do this and almost 9/10 i would miss. i even tested myself recently when i found myself doing this and i missed. you need to have confidence that what you selected while standing was what you see when down on the shot. if not just get up.

i find that once i have selected the contact i try to drop straight down rather than sliding into the shot as some do. i think when its right you can feel it, you are more still and confident that you will pot.

believe me this game is all in the mind my friend

[Belloz22]

I dont quite think its that tho - more often than not i know the correct line etc, and i dont think my eyes move on the OB to try and go on a dif line, i think its happening for no reason, or its like a panic reaction and my eyes move for no reason, much like a twitch maybe. Same reason some people may tap their finger etc....... just seems my eyes move for some reason, more often than not, more towards the center of the OB if anything. I know im on the right line etc - so i cant see my eyes moving to adjust to a line i know is wrong. I even tried playing with my eyes closed and found i was still potting just as well, if not more consistently sometimes. Its really odd though maybe im looking for a reason im bad

[alabadi]

possible, but sometimes we can find the line standing but move off it as we get down, the brain is a clever thing and can tell that what we see is wrong and starts trying to adjust your focus to the correct spot. its like a challenge between the eyes and the brain, and this is where a lack of trust sets in and can cause confusion.

i'm not sure if this is what is happening to you, all i can say as long as you or still and drive the cue through straight, if you miss it has to be that you selected the wrong line

[Sidd]

Dear Belloz,

There isn't the need for me to comment here given that everything has been stated above for you to consider and improve. However, I find it pertinent to poke my nose in because i can personally 'relate' to what you are going through. I have gone through this for 2 straight years my dear and that is not a small time frame for any snooker lover. But I kept going the rough paths and here I am today- a proper player if not better.

I would try to summarize my snooker story here (forgive me if its a little long but I can assure you it would be of help to you). My affair started at the age of 11 when i started watching snooker video tapes that were sent to my uncle by his friend in the UK. There was no youtube internet at that time of course. Those were the matches of the 70's and 80's ... yes Alex, Davis and the like... I started to play only when I was at least 20 maybe because the environment in snooker clubs in my part of the world particularly in those days was not considered good for kids by parents and they have good reasons for that (smoking... drugs like hashish etc... betting... gambling over snooker... fights sometimes resulting in police raids... on a few rare occasions gun shots exchange during the fighting parties... etc etc don't be amazed for I belong to Peshawar and now settled in Islamabad). So I could only go and play when I was considered mature enough and was 'allowed' by my parents and that too only in better decent proper clubs. I started taking her (snooker) seriously and began on the quest to get her. I am just trying to tell you here how much I love and adore her.

To cut the crap now, I have been playing this game for about 13 years now. After many years of playing (no coaching included- self-play only) I realised that I wasn't consistent with my game so I came to this forum and there began my age of enlightenment where I learnt so much about her likes and dislikes from experts as well as other players on this forum. I started to improve my technique in order to play better and consistent (I had made two 50 plus breaks before joining this forum though) ... hence you can understand that when I used to play proper I was not that bad. I learnt about technique and that ruined my game for almost 2 years trust me. Those were the 2 most unimaginably hard years of my life... I could not pot a ball could not play well loosing to easy players and kids was a habit... got laughed at many a times... Frustration, anguish, agony.... you can ask Terry Davidson how I used to get it all out on this forum and he used to make me understand not to be like that but I could not control myself... I have the greatest regard for him because he used to listen to my moans with patience and had to tell me a million times the same things over and over again but I wasn't getting it... when I tried to learn about the grip I got so much in to it that I forgot how to hold and was more like a technique freak ... Steve and others here know that fairly very well... I was so perplexed and in to learning all these things that if i tell you some things you might laugh at me like my mates but here it is:

- Have you picked up a small viper in the toilet while on the toilet seat and practiced your grip while you excrete (sorry for that guys)

- While driving your car, have you ever held the steering wheel as if you were holding a cue butt and practiced the grip configuration throughout the drive.

- have you ever bent down on your office table as if it were a snooker table and corrected your stance and checked if your grip hand is over the laces or not

I have done all of the above including practicing for hours, daily on the snooker table... It isnt that I did not have a natural ability to play... I was making odd 40 breaks and 30 breaks all along... !!! But i never thought of quitting on her I always challenged myself with winning her heart and getting to her ... the love that started at the age of 11 was still young and energetic at the age of 35... that is true love isn't it ?

Then suddenly one day I was forced in to the habit of locking my eyes on the object ball contact point by Steve and I practiced it to the point that it helped me improve my potting... similarly I saw an old old post by Terry about the grip configuration and pressure that for some reason gave me my grip back and then when I played I realised it was the grip all along... and everything else fell in to its proper place automatically.... So I started enjoying the game after 2 years of anguish..!!!

I can tell you that you are in the same process my dear dear friend... So not be frustrated (but you will be like me) just dont worry about it ... the more the frustration the greater the challenge ... it will come to you eventually... just do what Jonnie Walker says: "keep walking" !!!

Hope this helps

[ace man]

- Have you picked up a small viper in the toilet while on the toilet seat and practiced your grip while you excrete (sorry for that guys)

- While driving your car, have you ever held the steering wheel as if you were holding a cue butt and practiced the grip configuration throughout the drive.

- have you ever bent down on your office table as if it were a snooker table and corrected your stance and checked if your grip hand is over the laces or not

Innocent on first one, but guilty on the rest of the charges, Sir. Sentence: snooker for life...

Seriously, this isn't that strange, though I'm not sure just how many players would admit this on a public forum. Many times I pulled the cue out of my case and "practiced" on my work desk...things like backswing, grip, pause, elbow position...etc. Unfortunately one cannot be at the real table all the time.

[Byrom]

You are all probably all going to attack me for saying this but I think everyone I have read about on this forum and on this thread over thinks it too much and this is where a lot of your problems are.

[vmax4steve]

I dont quite think its that tho - more often than not i know the correct line etc, and i dont think my eyes move on the OB to try and go on a dif line, i think its happening for no reason, or its like a panic reaction and my eyes move for no reason, much like a twitch maybe. Same reason some people may tap their finger etc....... just seems my eyes move for some reason, more often than not, more towards the center of the OB if anything. I know im on the right line etc - so i cant see my eyes moving to adjust to a line i know is wrong. I even tried playing with my eyes closed and found i was still potting just as well, if not more consistently sometimes. Its really odd though maybe im looking for a reason im bad

So I was right then, you're not looking at the contact point on the object ball at the moment of the strike and your natural eye rhythm has been interfered with by the coaches you have seen who have told you to slow down and put pauses into your action that don't need to be there..
You played on your own thinking only about where you should be looking and briefly dropped back into your natural action and made a 70. What more proof do you need ?
The hand follows the eye and this is why you can even pot with your eyes closed, as you are not looking at anything, therefore the cue goes through straight as you have a straight action anyway. With the eyes open it's imperative that you look where you should be looking otherwise the hand will follow the eye and you miss if you're looking anywhere else.
Get your dad to check your eye movement on the shot as it's almost impossible to know yourself where your eyes move to when you are playing badly.

I'm willing to bet that you look up at the pocket at the moment of the strike as you are so anxious about missing that you look to see if the object ball is on target before you have struck the cue ball.

This is what I do myself and it's the reason why I'm so very inconsistant. I can play for an hour and not string three balls together and then suddenly knock in a 70 odd from nowhere simply because I have subconsciously relaxed and cleared my mind of any anxiety and thought.

I can't do it at will, here's hoping that you can.

Where the eyes are focussed at the moment of the strike should be the very first thing a coach should look for in a student before any attempt is made to change anything else.

[ace man]

You are all probably all going to attack me for saying this but I think everyone I have read about on this forum and on this thread over thinks it too much and this is where a lot of your problems are.

No, you are 100% correct indeed. However, not all players have started as children with right fundamentals. When one becomes aware of bad habits later in life, they are very hard to break, it takes a lot of time and practice. That's why it is very difficult for many to truly let go and only play using subconscious...which is the ultimate goal of course.
Whenever I made any substantial break, I could hardly remember any shots.

[Belloz22]

No, you are 100% correct indeed. However, not all players have started as children with right fundamentals. When one becomes aware of bad habits later in life, they are very hard to break, it takes a lot of time and practice. That's why it is very difficult for many to truly let go and only play using subconscious...which is the ultimate goal of course.
Whenever I made any substantial break, I could hardly remember any shots.

This is one of the reasons I feel coaching has not really helped me. I never really had bad technique before coaching, but one thing it did you was make me so much more aware of issues however minor they were. With my coaches not knowing what was wrong, it was them basically guessing at things. Because this has gone on for so many years, as well as outside input etc....... it has got to the stage where subconciously im always thinking im doing something wrong. Come to think of it...... whenever I had coaching, I played like I feel I should play for the coach, not the way I feel comfortable playing....... so that already put me on a back foot I suppose. I still feel there is def an issue with my eyes on the final stroke...... and I always maintained I find it hard to focus on a spot that aint there, esp when the lights and shadows on the ball hinder my focus. It does seem my eyes flinch back to the center of the white...... not because of incertainty...... but more because its easier to focus on the center of the object ball. It sounds odd I know..... but would help explain me potting with eyes closed etc. I dont know...... im not asking much, just would like to get to a level where I can consistently make 30-40s...... and not feel im throwinv away 5-6 chances per frame and not knowing why

[narl]

Snookers a cruel game, sometimes it doesn't matter how many hours you've put in or worked on your stance, cue action and follow through. Some days it just refuses to work, winds me up no end when that happens. last night was a good example, flukes all over the show and the max I got in terms of breaks was about 16.

That being said for most of it I was playing on a table I hate playing on, so that probably plays its part, puts me off before I even start.