Timing

[Tiger800]

Timing: it gets mentioned a lot by players, commentators, forums etc. It also seems to mean different things to some but never gets defined so here's my take on it.

To me it's the point along the path of the cue where the tip meets the cue ball.
One of the ways this becomes evident to me is if I pick up a cue that is shorter or longer than my regular cue, I can feel the timing is out, I am not contacting the CB at the same point along my stroke and all kinds of issues ensue.
Recently I started with a new cue that's 1/2" shorter and although the hit and balance felt great after a week or so the timing is still not quite right.

I used to feather the CB at least once or twice a session (bad habit of addressing so close) I don't do that anymore which tells me I am now too far back, my grip is still in the same spot at the end of the cue though. I think the body position is going to take some time to adjust when getting down on the shot.
Thoughts?

[magicman]

For a start you shouldn't have a cue that you're holding right at the end. To gain greater cue power, while keeping your timing the same, you should be able to move your hand further back along your cue. The reverse is also true, in that to keep similar timing for a soft shot you should bring your rear hand forward on your cue. Then you ought to be able to 'time' the ball properly with a rear pause and delivery to your chest.

That said, you can know all of the above and still struggle to time the white correctly!

[warren132]

Have a look at this. Hope it helps you understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD659eZ054I

[CoachGavin]

Good timing is just keeping the tip touching the cue ball on contact for as long as possible. To do this the tip needs to accelerate as the white starts its forward motion. The longer amount of time the tip is contacting the cue ball the better the cue ball follows the line of aim and the more spin is generated so two big positives. This is why as you improve you will 'feel' when you have timed a shot well because you can feel that the tip spends a longer amount of time pushing through the white.

[Tiger800]

Good timing is just keeping the tip touching the cue ball on contact for as long as possible. To do this the tip needs to accelerate as the white starts its forward motion. The longer amount of time the tip is contacting the cue ball the better the cue ball follows the line of aim and the more spin is generated so two big positives. This is why as you improve you will 'feel' when you have timed a shot well because you can feel that the tip spends a longer amount of time pushing through the white.

Hi Gavin, thanks for the reply.
The contact time was thought in the past to be a factor but is no longer considered to be accurate. There is some good info at the following link as it has been studied and explained.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...p.html#contact

Thanks again.

[Tiger800]

Thanks warren, this follows along with what I alluded to in my previous post. The only thing that effects the cue ball reaction is point of contact and cue speed, longer back swing = more cue speed.
What it doesn't explain is addressing the CB and this is where my problem seems to be. What reference are we subconsciously using when we get down to address the ball? because this is what is positioning my tip for the start of my stroke and also timing the point of contact along the path of the stroke.

[nrage]

Good timing is getting the brain and cue in sync such that the cue contacts the white at exactly the moment the brain thinks it will. This aids in striking accurately, and cueing through the ball. It also reduces any momentary unconscious "surprises" as the brain expects something which is then delayed slightly.

[Tiger800]

For a start you shouldn't have a cue that you're holding right at the end. To gain greater cue power, while keeping your timing the same, you should be able to move your hand further back along your cue. The reverse is also true, in that to keep similar timing for a soft shot you should bring your rear hand forward on your cue. Then you ought to be able to 'time' the ball properly with a rear pause and delivery to your chest.

That said, you can know all of the above and still struggle to time the white correctly!

Thanks for the reply, not sure this is an issue I only choke up off the cush or up real close, for more power I use a longer back swing and my bridge is long enough to allow this, I believe this is more to do with body position at address.

Cheers

[Terry Davidson]

I would define perfect timing as hitting the cueball when the cue has returned to the EXACT address position. Whereas rhythm could be the pace and smoothness of the backswing and delivery, with acceleration on the delivery starting out slow in the first cm or so and then building up to the speed required and even increasing that speed after the cueball has been struck.

Some people confuse timing and rhythm

Terry

[Tiger800]

quote:
Good timing is getting the brain and cue in sync such that the cue contacts the white at exactly the moment the brain thinks it will. This aids in striking accurately, and cueing through the ball. It also reduces any momentary unconscious "surprises" as the brain expects something which is then delayed slightly.

Original Source: http://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/boa...#ixzz2TZs0J3MN
- TSF - TheSnookerForum.com Thats probably true to a degree, brain expects contact at point A along the path of the stroke but it's coming later or sooner and brain gets confused. just trying to figure out what is happening subconsciously in the setup thats putting me in that position. Maybe just need time to adjust. So if I am contacting later by being slightly further away then that is well after the acceleration flattens out and it does feel sort of like a decel hit.

[j6uk]

Yep and you can't miss.

This is why as you improve you will 'feel' when you have timed a shot well because you can feel that the tip spends a longer amount of time pushing through the white.

[Tiger800]

Yep and you can't miss.

Contact time has been well studied and is a non factor in CB reaction, it's only 1/1000 aprx. the CB is long gone. See my earlier post with the link for the science.
I think the confusion has always been with the "accelerating follow through" the reason this allows for more accuracy on the CB contact (hence more reaction) is the relaxed state of the muscles during this motion, relaxed muscles allow for faster reaction (cue speed) and also allow the cue to stay on course (accuracy), decel requires tension and pulls the cue off line.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...follow-through

[nrage]

I would define perfect timing as hitting the cueball when the cue has returned to the EXACT address position. Whereas rhythm could be the pace and smoothness of the backswing and delivery, with acceleration on the delivery starting out slow in the first cm or so and then building up to the speed required and even increasing that speed after the cueball has been struck.

Some people confuse timing and rhythm

I believe Terry is saying the same thing as I am WRT timing. If your setup is consistent and you're always striking the cueball with the arm in exactly the same position you will train your brain to expect it at the same point.

I also agree that ppl confuse timing and rhythm, but there is some overlap between the two. For example I watched an interesting video about the accuracy of our internal clock and how it is actually very good at measuring quite small time periods, like fractions of fractions of seconds. This internal timing is what we use to control the rhythm of our cue action, the speed of acceleration, the pause at front and back. So timing dictates rhythm and rhythm dictates timing, that's how they're linked.

Thats probably true to a degree, brain expects contact at point A along the path of the stroke but it's coming later or sooner and brain gets confused. just trying to figure out what is happening subconsciously in the setup thats putting me in that position. Maybe just need time to adjust. So if I am contacting later by being slightly further away then that is well after the acceleration flattens out and it does feel sort of like a decel hit.

"Confused" may be too strong a word, but it won't "feel" quite right in some subtle way you cannot put your finger on.

For a while I was placing tape on the grip of my cue, and a small mark on the shaft above the bridge hand (I used a small square of tape). Then I would setup on shots and check the mark was positioned correctly, and that I could feel the tape on the grip with my forefinger so I would know I was setup correctly. On shots where I had to shorten the bridge I would use the difference between the mark and my bridge to adjust my grip, to get back into that ideal setup position.

I think you do need time to learn the timing of your stroke, and it helps if you're consistent about setup etc.

[Tiger800]

I believe Terry is saying the same thing as I am WRT timing. If your setup is consistent and you're always striking the cueball with the arm in exactly the same position you will train your brain to expect it at the same point.

I also agree that ppl confuse timing and rhythm, but there is some overlap between the two. For example I watched an interesting video about the accuracy of our internal clock and how it is actually very good at measuring quite small time periods, like fractions of fractions of seconds. This internal timing is what we use to control the rhythm of our cue action, the speed of acceleration, the pause at front and back. So timing dictates rhythm and rhythm dictates timing, that's how they're linked.



"Confused" may be too strong a word, but it won't "feel" quite right in some subtle way you cannot put your finger on.

For a while I was placing tape on the grip of my cue, and a small mark on the shaft above the bridge hand (I used a small square of tape). Then I would setup on shots and check the mark was positioned correctly, and that I could feel the tape on the grip with my forefinger so I would know I was setup correctly. On shots where I had to shorten the bridge I would use the difference between the mark and my bridge to adjust my grip, to get back into that ideal setup position.

I think you do need time to learn the timing of your stroke, and it helps if you're consistent about setup etc.

I'm pretty consistent in my setup and putt along with a moderate steady pace, been using the same 58" cue and setting up the same for years, grip has always been right at the end. So I think the missing 1/2" has messed with my setup and even just moving in a bit doesn't seem to fix it. Your right about how accurate our senses can be and that the rhythm is linked, I think the tolerances are so fine that it doesn't take much to upset the system and probably why even some of the best can lose their timing. I wish I had S Murphy's 1-2-3-go rhythm on almost every shot

[cyberheater]

I'm going to be a bit controversial but I'm going to say I don't believe in timing. I do believe in accuracy and speed. If you hit the bottom of a cue ball at the correct point with a fast enough delivery. You'll screw the white without problem. You could use any technique you like but as long as you hit the white at the right point with the right speed. You'll screw back.

It has nothing to do with timing. Technique yes. Not timing.