Natural Angle of the White

[nrage]

Not trying to be cheeky or sarcastic here but aren't all angles rather natural?

True, true .. the word natural is perhaps technically wrong. It's the commonly used word for phrases like "natural angle" and "naturally rolling cue ball" (the type of cue ball which heads off at the natural angle).

I'm sure you know..

A screw shot has a cue ball which is moving forward and rotating backward, it is sliding and not technically rolling at all.
A stun shot might slide the whole way (center strike), or start with backward rotation (below center strike) which wears off into a slide with no rotation at the moment of impact.

All shots will eventually start to roll "naturally", this "natural" roll is defined as the right amount of forward rotation for the forward speed such that the ball is not sliding, more speed = more rotation, less speed = less rotation, it is the "ground state" for the system, the state for which the lowest amount of energy is expended and therefore the state it converges on without any further outside influence.. it does it naturally so to speak.

I think that's why people say "naturally rolling" and thus "natural angle".

[nrage]

This is a good drill too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

It's doable on a snooker table, but harder as there are more possible targets and less margin for error.

[damienlch]

...All shots will eventually start to roll "naturally", this "natural" roll is defined as the right amount of forward rotation for the forward speed such that the ball is not sliding, more speed = more rotation, less speed = less rotation, it is the "ground state" for the system, the state for which the lowest amount of energy is expended and therefore the state it converges on without any further outside influence.. it does it naturally so to speak.

I think that's why people say "naturally rolling" and thus "natural angle".

Yes, or better still, just call the shot out, for e.g. centre ball striking would cause the cue ball to travel this way, top spin and it travels that way. Less ambiguous.

I think Sidd hit the nail on the head in his earlier post about not being overly concerned with the lines and exact angles on the white. You have to develop a feel for the shot too...

[PJ1]

Natural angle of ther white

Hi all

I was just wondering is there any particular method in finding out what exact line the cue ball will travel after striking the object ball .
I am a good potter and am pretty decent at stun, screw and topspin but can find it hard at times to find the natural path of the cueball.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi
Yes there is, although you will never get the exact line and position because a player never hits the ball exactly, whether its the cue ball or the one they are aiming for, one can only estimate within a few centimetres. What you need to do is follow the geometry in which the cue ball travels. A simpple case is a straight shot where the ball stops dead and will not head off a 45 degree angle etc.
If the ball is say at 45 degree angle then the cue bull will hit the other ball at 45 degree and the side cushion at around 45 degree's as well, and rebound off at a similar angle. But don't forget the position of the cue ball is deternined by how hard you hit the cue ball, that's why you can never say for certain where the final position of the cue ball will rest, only estimate.
Hope this is some help,try it, it work for me.

[nrage]

Yes, or better still, just call the shot out, for e.g. centre ball striking would cause the cue ball to travel this way, top spin and it travels that way. Less ambiguous.

You could say that, but you'd be wrong in plenty of cases.

Take a short distance pot (1-2 ft between white and red). If you play center with med-low power it will develop roll and take the natural angle. If you play with med-high power it will stun and take the tangent line (90 degrees).

Likewise, if the balls are very close and you play center or top with more than power = 2 you will only ever get stun because there simply isn't time for the roll to develop.

[vmax4steve]

What I have noticed after years of playing is this:

I would miss a ball and could miss, on occasions, many times but at all times my positioning is pretty much near perfect (perfect to what i have in mind for a shot).
As a young player I always wanted to develop breaks. This goes on up to this point of time. So in the process although my potting is not always as good as it needs to be; m positioning is never out.

So you know your natural angles Sidd and sometimes play them on a subconscious level for position forgetting about the angle needed to pot the ball thus missing it but getting the desired position.
We all do this on occasion, but what I suggested about playing some plain ball billiards will give you all the info you need about the natural angle the cue ball and object ball will take on plain ball shots. Ally this to what you can make the cue ball do with stun, screw and side allied to power should make you a better positional player.

The game of billiards is a great teacher.

[Sidd]

So you know your natural angles Sidd and sometimes play them on a subconscious level for position forgetting about the angle needed to pot the ball thus missing it but getting the desired position.
We all do this on occasion, but what I suggested about playing some plain ball billiards will give you all the info you need about the natural angle the cue ball and object ball will take on plain ball shots. Ally this to what you can make the cue ball do with stun, screw and side allied to power should make you a better positional player.

The game of billiards is a great teacher.

Thanks for the response Steve. So does this mean that while playing I miss due to the fact that I sort of try to force the angle in my mind rather than depending on the natural angle ??? Like I have an angle in mind for the white to travel for a position so while playing it I get the angle right by forcing it by hitting on the wrong spot of the Ob and end up missing it.... Hmmm is that the case or am I misunderstanding it completely cuz if that is the case then it seems ot be confusing and hard to get out of.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

That happens a lot, even to the pros. What it is they take their eyes off the object ball and just concentrate on getting the cueball where they want it and will sometimes hit the wrong spot on the object ball. I've done this myself and the only way to overcome it is to first of all plan how you're going to hit the cueball while you are standing behind the shot and secondly (and most important) is to ensure your eyes are locked on the object ball at the time of strike.

I catch myself following the cueball with my eyes to ensure it gets to the right spot (which it always does in this situation) but I will miss the pot, sometimes by a wide margin. It only seems to happen to me when I am attempting a soft cannon, usually in the black area of the table.

When this happens to a pro the commentators will always say 'he took his eye off the ball'.

Terry

[vmax4steve]

Thanks for the response Steve. So does this mean that while playing I miss due to the fact that I sort of try to force the angle in my mind rather than depending on the natural angle ???

Everyone does this Sidd, I did it in one frame in friday nights match when I was on 24 with a slightly thinner than I wanted cut on a red to go up for the pink. I was going to play it with running side off the cushion to stay on the pink, changed my mind to a soft screw without using the cushion but seeing as I had already aimed for a thicker contact on the red because I was going to use side I forgot to adjust that and played the thick contact with soft screw, missed the pot of course but got perfect on the pink.

Simply a case of losing concentration. It can also happen simply through looking at the angle needed for position rather than the angle needed to pot the ball and/or taking the eye off the pot when down in the stance and looking instead at the path the cue ball needs to take for position or a cannon needed on another ball.

[Sidd]

Terry and Steve:

Then I guess this is where I am at fault. Although I would do such a silly thing on occassions where I dont have to cannon etc and simply pot and position but I guess you both have hinted between the lines at eyes on potting spot at the moment of strike ... I have come to the conclusion that by doing only that with consistency many of my complaints will do away and I shall be able to pot properly and usually and not miss those tiny easy delicate pots that I at times so.

My biggest two challenges perhaps are as under:

1. To have trust and faith in my techniaue and do not always look for faults every time I miss.
2. To have the discipline not to think about anything during a match i still do about grip and other things etc ... Only eyes on BOB is enough I know

I think I am on to something and tonight's match would decide this for me.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

There is a theory that if you concentrate HARD on just one thing the the unconscious and natural ability you have will take over and you'll end up going into the 'zone' and playing well. Very similar to the '1 swing thought idea'.

What better concentration target than locking the eyes on the object ball during the delivery? Get everything out of yur mind except that one thought and concentrate HARD on that object ball.

Terry

[Leapfrog11]

excellent video m8

cheers

[throtts]

If I concentrate on staying down and still on the shot then everything else seems to full in to place. Since having my table I think movement on the shot is a huge killer of technique, obviously. Problem is a lot of us don't realise we are doing it due to focusing too much on other parts of our game.

Make sure your chin is nailed down, Sidd throughout the shot, past 2 days I really have been focusing on this and boy what a difference. As Terry states, a camera would really teach and show us.

[Sidd]

If I concentrate on staying down and still on the shot then everything else seems to full in to place. Since having my table I think movement on the shot is a huge killer of technique, obviously. Problem is a lot of us don't realise we are doing it due to focusing too much on other parts of our game.

Make sure your chin is nailed down, Sidd throughout the shot, past 2 days I really have been focusing on this and boy what a difference. As Terry states, a camera would really teach and show us.

You are right mate. I do not have a camera at the moment but soon i would do a video indeed. As far as the head movement goes I am quite confident that it would not be as much. Cant rule out no movement at all but there is no severe movement I am sure... How do I know that... My method is to feel the cue crushing against the chin on delivery... Whenever I loose this feeling I know my chin isnt there

[Sidd]

Sidd:

There is a theory that if you concentrate HARD on just one thing the the unconscious and natural ability you have will take over and you'll end up going into the 'zone' and playing well. Very similar to the '1 swing thought idea'.

What better concentration target than locking the eyes on the object ball during the delivery? Get everything out of yur mind except that one thought and concentrate HARD on that object ball.

Terry

Thanks a lot Terry. Mean a lot.

I went in yesterday and had thought not to think of anything but eyes locked on the OB. Guess what happened? I started playing and on my first four shots I did in-offs on all four of them and gave away 16 to the other player. Then I would pot and get an in off and that happened for another few times. We were laughing at this. Lady luck did not have a date with me yesterday.

Anyway, after starting not so good I once again got caught up with grip (mostly grip) and being the ediot that I am ... started missing. the more that I missed the more grip came in mind. I played like a novice kid yesterday and lost everything.

I have determined to discipline myself first of all and since tonight I will have this one resolve in mind:

Eyes locked on OB on delivery. no matter what happens I play good or bad I will discipline myself tonight and see how that goes.

Kind regards.