Im seriously losing my sanity with this game !!!! HELP !!!!

[vmax4steve]

If i look at BOB - i tend to find i hit it with the front of the white, rather than the correct contact point - so for a half ball - where i know the white needs to be aimmed at the side of the object ball, the BOB isnt on that point though is it, yet if i look at BOB, i find i end up hitting the shot thick

Wrong Belloz22,

BOB is on the side on the object ball, the middle of the cue ball isn't though. If you're looking at the invisible point where the middle of the cue ball will end up then no wonder you're having trouble. You're aiming at the wrong point by looking down the line of the cue, through the cue ball and onto the contact point.

Find the line of aim when standing behind the shot and seeing the contact point between the two balls and focus on it. This will give your brain the information that what you are trying to do is make the two balls contact on this exact point. The brain will subconsciously put your body in the right place and the cue on the correct line without you having to consciously think about where the cue should lie in relation to the two contact points.

Never ever consciously point the cue through the cue ball onto the contact point of the object ball on angled shots as this will put the cue on the wrong line and you end up overiding the subconscious that controls natural hand and eye co-ordination.
This is what I mean by playing without thinking and simply looking where you need to look at the correct time.
You are consciously aiming at the wrong spot rather than just looking, seeing and focussing subconsciously.

[alabadi]

Wrong Belloz22,

This will give your brain the information that what you are trying to do is make the two balls contact on this exact point. The brain will subconsciously put your body in the right place and the cue on the correct line without you having to consciously think about where the cue should lie in relation to the two contact points.

Never ever consciously point the cue through the cue ball onto the contact point of the object ball on angled shots as this will put the cue on the wrong line and you end up overiding the subconscious that controls natural hand and eye co-ordination.

Good explanation of a difficult concept to understand.

I think this is where beginners and those who have played for a few years and are struggling go wrong. I have been there myself and I am still trying to get rid of the habit of looking at where my cue is pointing when down on the shot.

I have only recently got use to force myself to keep my eyes locked on the point I select on BOB at strike time. now sometimes I do miss but that is partly to do with selecting the wrong point or movement due to technique flaws.

I can say that yesterday I was practicing blacks off the spot from a high position (one of my nemesis shots) once I selected the contact point I got down and locked my eyes on it. the conflict I was getting from eyes and brain was fascinating almost majority of the shots my eyes were telling me too thick too thick, however I let my brain over ride this and played the shot..... bang in the middle of the pocket....result.

I played this for about an hour and all of a sudden the conflict stopped, what I saw was the correct point and as long as I kept focus on that point I potted the ball.......amazing.

I shall stick to this for the next few weeks until it becomes as you put it Vmax part of my un conscious decisions and ingrained in my brain .

[pottr]

Good explanation of a difficult concept to understand.

It's a perfect explanation. But that's the point. It's too difficult for a beginner to understand straight off.

Having watched Belloz and all the movement on his action and his inconsistent delivery of the cue, I don't think sighting is the issue.

Even if he sights correctly every time, he won't improve as that's not the root cause of all that upper body movement.

Walk into a solid stance, drop down onto the shot, slow back, keep still til the white stops and repeat.

Whatever advice you follow, just make sure the above is consistent.

[Terry Davidson]

There are some very good points here and I'll see if I can add anything.

First of all there are only TWO definite aiming points in snooker, the first being a dead-in shot and the second being a half-ball cut where the cue is aimed at the edge of the object ball (as mentioned by nrage). However, the difficulty here is how does the player know it's exactly a 1/2-ball cut. I have trouble deciding this unless I set up a blue into the middle and move the cueball around until I see the point of aim is the edge of the ball, but them I'm sort of doing it backwards.

This question has come up many times on here. There is always an off-set between the back of the ball and the aiming line of the cue and too many players ask 'how do I calculate the amount of off-set?'. The answer is very simple, YOU CAN'T CONSCIOUSLY CALCULATE THAT AMOUNT OF OFFSET simply because if you tried to do this consciously you would go bonkers and probably quite playing!

Your brain will do this AUTOMATICALLY and UNCONSCIOUSLY but you have to train your brain to learn this art. The way to do this is to STAY DOWN ON THE SHOT AND OBSERVE THE OBJECT BALL UNTIL IT HITS THE POCKET OR A CUSHION. When you make the pot your brain will understand automatically that is the correct aiming point for that pot and if you miss it your brain will also note that and will automatically make adjustments when that type of pot or something near to it comes up again. This is called FEEDBACK or else BIO-FEEDBACK if you prefer.

So the correct answer to all this is trying to analyse the off-set angle consciously will ensure you will end up in an institution but if you just let it flow (and aim at the CENTRE of the ghost cueball as nrage says) you will end up learning how to pot any shot. However, it does take practice and one more important thing.

You must learn how to deliver the cue consistently straight so you're working from a solid foundation, as otherwise you will be lost which I suspect is the problem with a lot of players.

Terry

[Belloz22]

I think there is confusion

Basically im standing behind the white, letting my mind pick the line, then getting down while looking and focusing on the spot on the object ball directly in line with the middle of the pocket?

It isnt a case of me drawing lines in my mind - i really do think most of my faults are not due to technical problems (yes there is some) but more because my whole concept of lining shots up, or getting down on the line of aim is all wrong, ive always thought this. This is the only reason i can see why i can miss simple pots by such a huge mile on occasions.

Anyway, i went back down today to get some practice on my own, and to concentrate on keeping eyes on BOB and to try and keep still and down on the shots - low and behold, still played as inconsistent as ever, and more often than not, missing easy shots.

Il put the video up later, again, hopefully people can pick up on things i havent

[vmax4steve]

It's a perfect explanation. But that's the point. It's too difficult for a beginner to understand straight off.

Having watched Belloz and all the movement on his action and his inconsistent delivery of the cue, I don't think sighting is the issue.

Even if he sights correctly every time, he won't improve as that's not the root cause of all that upper body movement.

Walk into a solid stance, drop down onto the shot, slow back, keep still til the white stops and repeat.

Whatever advice you follow, just make sure the above is consistent.

I disagree pottr, sighting is the root cause as his hand and eye co-ordination is in conflict and it's this anxiety that making him move around before the shot is played as he hasn't got the cue on the correct line half the time. He's so desperate to see if the ball is on its way to the pocket that he moves his head when he takes his eye off the object ball and he moves his body because his cue is on one line while he tries looking down another line.

Your advice is perfect but it must follow once the eyes and aiming are sorted.

[Terry Davidson]

belloz:

Yes, please put up a video. I'm willing to bet you are moving your upper body during the backswing and delivery and it's this which is causing you problems, so put up a video and prove me wrong.

The reason I say this is millions of snooker players throughout the history of the game have been able to determine the correct line of aim of the cue and I can say this with assurance because there have been millions of players who can pot balls with some consistency.

In addition, there have been thousands of players who stay absolutely still on the shot and all of them started delivering the cue consistently straight and if they started when they were young a large number of them went on to be professionals.

Most players (even myself) THINK they are staying still on the shot because they are concentrating on it and can't detect any movement but if you put a video camera on them and watch their upper body and hips and then reverse the video and watch the cue in the backswing and delivery you can see movement and a crooked backswing and delivery. Some of this type of player have gone on to be really good players because they can coordinate their unorthodox cueing technique, but not many of them.

Terry

[Belloz22]

I disagree pottr, sighting is the root cause as his hand and eye co-ordination is in conflict and it's this anxiety that making him move around before the shot is played as he hasn't got the cue on the correct line half the time. He's so desperate to see if the ball is on its way to the pocket that he moves his head when he takes his eye off the object ball and he moves his body because his cue is on one line while he tries looking down another line.

Your advice is perfect but it must follow once the eyes and aiming are sorted.

I kinda believe is is my problem - i hand down believe sighting is my issue. The reason being is ive been to see coaches, most of them have always commented how my technique is relatively good. Yes i know there is small problems now, but this is a result of such uncertainty. Thing is, until you can trust that your getting down on the correct potting line, cueing straight is no use to anyone, as you will still miss, and get wrong feedback, cause your mind is in dispute to whether it is bad cueing or the wrong line. Everyone has always said you miss cause you dont cue straight, so unconciously, you always believe your on the right potting line, so start adjusting your technique, and you go backwards. Hopefully the video i put up later can clearly show how i play when i keep looking at BOB

But personally i believe, even if i was the best cueist in the world, i would be just as inconcsistent as i am now - maybe im wrong, and i would love to fix it, but thats my personal thoughts now.

[alabadi]

I think there is confusion

i really do think most of my faults are not due to technical problems (yes there is some) but more because my whole concept of lining shots up, or getting down on the line of aim is all wrong

Belloz I think you need to listen to some of the advice given on here, rather than making your own judgments. I am no expert and there are many on here more qualified to give you proper advice.

I have seen the video and you definitely have some body movement, some shots are snatchy too. I agree with Pottr unless you eliminate body movement, it doesn't matter that you get down on the correct line, pick out the exact contact point on BOB. because you will miss.

we have all been there, and sometimes like to think that we know what the errors are and then ask how to correct them, when in fact what we were asking for wasn't the problem in the first place.

we then start tinkering with something that was perfectly ok to start with and then this makes the matter worse. I myself could swear blind that I didn't move on certain shots I missed. then I took a video of myself (suggested by Terry) and used some software to slow the video down frame by frame, I was amazed at the amount of body movement that was happening.

this is my humble opinion only, you need to focus on eliminated body movement as a priority, then if you still miss simple shots see what other issues you have, unless you solve the issue of movement anything else is a waist of time TBH.

in this game you need to tackle each problem on its own before you move onto the next, too many changes at once and you will be going round in circles.

I hope you don't get discouraged by any comments, in the end everyone on here is merely trying to help to allow you to achieve your goals

[pottr]

I disagree pottr, sighting is the root cause as his hand and eye co-ordination is in conflict and it's this anxiety that making him move around before the shot is played as he hasn't got the cue on the correct line half the time.

I think it's cause he shuffles his feet a touch and never gets settled on the line of the shot.

He's so desperate to see if the ball is on its way to the pocket that he moves his head when he takes his eye off the object ball and he moves his body because his cue is on one line while he tries looking down another line.

Well, whatever his eyes are doing, if he keeps his head still it negates the movement.

I can line a shot up and close my eyes. As long as I keep still, the result will be the same. My eyes don't pot the ball, my arm does.

[pottr]

I kinda believe is is my problem - i hand down believe sighting is my issue. The reason being is ive been to see coaches, most of them have always commented how my technique is relatively good.

I'd say you've got some ability. But if I were coaching you I wouldn't tell you what was good, I'd try to correct what was wrong.

Selby and McManus move their head a lot. It's nothing to do with them looking at the wrong point of contact... They just move.

But like Terry says, they learnt to push the cue through straight. THAT is all that matters, however you do it. If Alex Higgins posted a video on this forum he'd be ripped to pieces. But he managed to get the cue through straight and goes down as one of the greatest ever.

[pottr]

this is my humble opinion only, you need to focus on eliminated body movement as a priority, then if you still miss simple shots see what other issues you have, unless you solve the issue of movement anything else is a waist of time TBH.

in this game you need to tackle each problem on its own before you move onto the next, too many changes at once and you will be going round in circles.

I hope you don't get discouraged by any comments, in the end everyone on here is merely trying to help to allow you to achieve your goals

My thoughts exactly.

[Belloz22]

See this brings up the issue with coaching, ive seen few coaches other the years, some quite well known, and i was only ever picked up technically for 2 things - 1st being the fact sometimes i have my bridge hand to far away from the shot, the 2nd being that i occasionally play with slight left hand side (coach could not solve this or find a solution). I still have the email with the feedback from the coach for that session.

The problem i feel is, and dont get me wrong, i may have the worse technique in the world, but from my experience with coaches and several hundreds of pounds spent, no coach has ever faulted me massively on technique, all of them spent most of the sessions looking at my positional play. So i was always led to believe what i was doing ment i was cueing straight, and all my inconsistencies lied else where. Even if i was cueing straight then, and technical sound, i still had the same inconsistencies then as i do now - and i cant see how 3 different coaches can all fail to see major technical issues.

Now that is not to say my technique has deterioated over the years, and if it has, it is due to me altering things to fix my inconsistencies, but my argument is, if they thought i was cueing straight then, and i had the same inconsitencies, logic would dictate the problem lies else where?? Correct me if im wrong

Not to be argumentative, but i do maintain, if i cued like stephen lee, id still be as inconcistent as i am now. To me, potting and identifying angles etc, has always felt like my mind is in the clouds.

Im not saying i would not work on cutting down technical problems, i do strive for a perfect technique, but as i said before, you can cue straight and still miss if on the wrong line of aim - which then cause disputes in your mind, cause you never truely know if you have not cued straight of have got on the wrong line of am.

[GeordieDS]

Average snooker players (like myself) are always looking for reasons why they cant get past a certain standard but the truth is they have reached their level and no amount of coaching or practise will help because in the heat of battle or in a match the bad habits always creep back in....In my opinion if you can accept your level and just start enjoying the game again without trying to turn yourself into some robot then you will play near the top of your game more often than not.


Edit: in fact this is going to be my signature so i can remind myself to just enjoy the game every time i play

[pottr]

See this brings up the issue with coaching, ive seen few coaches other the years, some quite well known, and i was only ever picked up technically for 2 things

No offense, I'm no coach and I spotted the three errors I mentioned in about five shots. I think those coaches you saw may have been pulling their punches.

I still have the email with the feedback from the coach for that session.

Email? Didn't he tell you there and then and line out corrections to practice on?

The problem i feel is, and dont get me wrong, i may have the worse technique in the world

You don't.

but from my experience with coaches and several hundreds of pounds spent, no coach has ever faulted me massively on technique, all of them spent most of the sessions looking at my positional play. So i was always led to believe what i was doing ment i was cueing straight, and all my inconsistencies lied else where. Even if i was cueing straight then, and technical sound, i still had the same inconsistencies then as i do now - and i cant see how 3 different coaches can all fail to see major technical issues.

Either they've been poor coaches or you haven't followed their advice to the letter?

Now that is not to say my technique has deterioated over the years, and if it has, it is due to me altering things to fix my inconsistencies, but my argument is, if they thought i was cueing straight then, and i had the same inconsitencies, logic would dictate the problem lies else where?? Correct me if im wrong

You posted a video, your cueing is not straight. You have a upper body movement on the shot, that's likely the cause of the cue not going through straight. Also, the speed which you push your cue through isn't consistent.

Not to be argumentative, but i do maintain, if i cued like stephen lee, id still be as inconcistent as i am now. To me, potting and identifying angles etc, has always felt like my mind is in the clouds.

You are wrong. If your action was consistent, you would learn the angles etc as you would know what works and what doesn't. You are blinding yourself my friend.

Im not saying i would not work on cutting down technical problems, i do strive for a perfect technique, but as i said before, you can cue straight and still miss if on the wrong line of aim - which then cause disputes in your mind, cause you never truely know if you have not cued straight of have got on the wrong line of am.

My first point was that you shuffle your feet and don't drop on the line of aim. But even if you did, you move a lot and jump up off the shot before it's finished.

3 simple things:

Steady stance, cue back slow, don't move til the white stops... You WOULD improve

But I get the impression that you are looking for a fix that doesn't exist.